Who was better

[manutd fan]

About the bold, I'd NEVER agree. The only thing that has gotten better is fitness, and sports medicine/technology. I look at some of these fucking "superstars" these days and myself into a coma

I think sometimes people overrate past generations - we all do it. We'll look at one player and focus on all the positive attributes whilst ignoring the negatives. Look at Zidane for instance - during his time at Madrid I don't think he ever showed the genuine consistency throughout the season that Iniesta has at Barcelona. His best was better than Iniesta's, but he didn't produce it as often.

People talk of the great Italian defences of the 90's/early 00's as if they were some unbreakable wall - they weren't. The timing of this is convenient as I just watched some footage the other day of the old Juventus/United matches, and often these great Juventus defences were terrorised by United and Giggs in particular. They literally could not handle the tempo and ended up looking like complete idiots at the basics.

You have a guy like Rivaldo who's rightly regarded as one of the best players of his generation, but people forget how god damn selfish he was at times when he'd shoot from every stupid angle regardless of the distance.

Go back to players like Garrincha and Best - two of the best players of their generation - whilst everyone remembers the countless times they picked up the ball and humiliated 5 or 6 players for fun, they fail to mention the times where they'd ignore a simple pass to a teammate in space and go for the glory of taking players on and failing.

The quality hasn't gotten worse - sure we go phases, but instead of saying the defending 'x' amount of years ago was so much better, we could also say the forward options now are so much better. In reality it's probably a bit of both.

edit:

Agree that Sheva > Ibra btw. As you said, Ibra almost always forces a team to be built around him. The style is often boring as hell to watch too.

 

[Soldier_of_god]

to be compared to with sheva himself shows how hood a player ibra really is. But yes, sheva is still >ibra in his prime.

 

[Casualista]

anyone who gets harassed out of a game by park ji-sun cannot be considered a zidane level player.

 

[leaf]

I think sometimes people overrate past generations - we all do it. We'll look at one player and focus on all the positive attributes whilst ignoring the negatives. Look at Zidane for instance - during his time at Madrid I don't think he ever showed the genuine consistency throughout the season that Iniesta has at Barcelona. His best was better than Iniesta's, but he didn't produce it as often.

People talk of the great Italian defences of the 90's/early 00's as if they were some unbreakable wall - they weren't. The timing of this is convenient as I just watched some footage the other day of the old Juventus/United matches, and often these great Juventus defences were terrorised by United and Giggs in particular. They literally could not handle the tempo and ended up looking like complete idiots at the basics.

You have a guy like Rivaldo who's rightly regarded as one of the best players of his generation, but people forget how god damn selfish he was at times when he'd shoot from every stupid angle regardless of the distance.

Go back to players like Garrincha and Best - two of the best players of their generation - whilst everyone remembers the countless times they picked up the ball and humiliated 5 or 6 players for fun, they fail to mention the times where they'd ignore a simple pass to a teammate in space and go for the glory of taking players on and failing.

The quality hasn't gotten worse - sure we go phases, but instead of saying the defending 'x' amount of years ago was so much better, we could also say the forward options now are so much better. In reality it's probably a bit of both.

edit:

Agree that Sheva > Ibra btw. As you said, Ibra almost always forces a team to be built around him. The style is often boring as hell to watch too.

Great points....but you need to remember something.....it's ALWAYS for an elite attacker to get the better of an elite defender....simply because the attacker only has to do it once or twice...and he gets all the highlights, accolades and possibly the result as well.

I got tarred and feathered by the forum when I said that a peak Ronaldinho would destroy a peak Maldini, but by the above reasoning, all Ron has to go is get past Paolo once or twice and score and it's all over.

Your '99 team was fantastic (Yorkie ) and though Thuram and co were great having Giggs run at your ass for 180+ min practically ensured that he was going to get a result or two in his favour.

As for defending, I'm kinda disappointed that you don't think the quality has declined....think of the list of Maldini, Cannavaro, Stam, Hierro, Thuram, Puyol Nesta, Cafu of last generation and honestly tell me...we have a MUCH smaller list in A. Cole, Thiago Silva and possibly Pique who has the presence that is comparable to the aforementioned.....and yes I agree Varane is fucking awesome as well and may soon join the elite.

 

[vB9]

A. Cole

Where the fuck did his name pop up from?

 

[jammin]

I saw Ashley Cole listed there.

 

[dhorasoo]

Italy won their world cup mainly because of their inpenetrable defense (Buffon, Canna, Gattuso, De Rossi) whereas for France and Madrid, ZZ was the difference IMHO. Not saying France was all ZZ. they had a good defense, mids and strikers as well. It is conceivable that Italy could have continued to grind out wins with the tough guys they had in midfield like DeRossi and Gattuso, where as France looked like abject shit without Zidane. Pirlo wasn't nearly the difference maker ZZ was and to keep hearing this shit that he was in his class is fucking annoying

De Rossi was red carded early in the second game of the tournament and only made a next appearance halfway through the final against France. I can't see how you can even nominate him being anywhere near important.

IMO it was more the combination between midfield AND defense which made Italy WC. Cannavaro was a general in the back, he stopped anything going his way, especially after Nesta got injured he took responsability like a boss, coaching the whole defense. But that midfield was equally important, without Pirlo it would've been all runners (Gattuso, Perrotta and Camoranesi), it was Pirlo who pulled the strings, who dictated play. I know, Totti was also there, but he disappeared nearly half the time. Without Pirlo, IMO, Italy wouldn't have become WC.

About the Zizou - Pirlo discussion, Zizou was from another planet, Pirlo was/is just world class. There is a difference between the two, but Pirlo was important in all big trophies his team/nation won. He can look Zizou in the face.

 

[necromancer]

De Rossi in 06? Have you watched the tournament. Dru? He was the villain after the elbow on that American player (I've actually forgotten his name ) and wasnt even the starter.

De Rossi was red carded early in the second game of the tournament and only made a next appearance halfway through the final against France. I can't see how you can even nominate him being anywhere near important.

IMO it was more the combination between midfield AND defense which made Italy WC. Cannavaro was a general in the back, he stopped anything going his way, especially after Nesta got injured he took responsability like a boss, coaching the whole defense. But that midfield was equally important, without Pirlo it would've been all runners (Gattuso, Perrotta and Camoranesi), it was Pirlo who pulled the strings, who dictated play. I know, Totti was also there, but he disappeared nearly half the time. Without Pirlo, IMO, Italy wouldn't have become WC.

+1 Would have put it exactly this way. Cannavaro, Pirlo and Buffon were equally critical in their own ways.

On top of that, Pirlo was significantly better than Zidane in 06 world cup. He was as good as he was creatively as he ever was in his career. Zidane had moments and inspired France to a final from some mediocre early matches. He was nowhere near his peak.

 

[Hondayum]

I'd say that Totti played an important role. Considering that he made most assists in the tournament and was also playing coming off of that horrible injury. Sure he did disappear at times, but he did play brilliantly as well

 

[Jasper]

He was the villain after the elbow on that American player (I've actually forgotten his name ) and wasnt even the starter.

McBride

 

[leaf]

De Rossi was red carded early in the second game of the tournament and only made a next appearance halfway through the final against France. I can't see how you can even nominate him being anywhere near important.

IMO it was more the combination between midfield AND defense which made Italy WC. Cannavaro was a general in the back, he stopped anything going his way, especially after Nesta got injured he took responsability like a boss, coaching the whole defense. But that midfield was equally important, without Pirlo it would've been all runners (Gattuso, Perrotta and Camoranesi), it was Pirlo who pulled the strings, who dictated play. I know, Totti was also there, but he disappeared nearly half the time. Without Pirlo, IMO, Italy wouldn't have become WC.

About the Zizou - Pirlo discussion, Zizou was from another planet, Pirlo was/is just world class. There is a difference between the two, but Pirlo was important in all big trophies his team/nation won. He can look Zizou in the face.

Yeah I know about the absences of DeRossi and Nesta. My point is that Italy's focus was on defense first. I could have seen Italy won the WC without Pirlo and with a prime Montolivo for instance (hypothetically of course). However I must say that some of the best passing I've ever seen came from him and Riquelme in that tournament

Agree with everything else. MASSIVE gulf in class between zz and P!rlo. Doesn't mean he was shit, only that Zizou was that much better.

 

[PaoloMaldini3]

Zidane - Gullit - Savicevic - Rui Costa - Boban - Iniesta - Lampard - Kaka - Gerrard - Iniesta - Laudrup - Figo - Giggs - McManaman - Rivaldo - Baggio

Rank. Hardest comparision ever.

 

[necromancer]

^The easiest part there is to rank Lampard and Gerrard. Right at the bottom. The second easiest is to rank the top two - Zidane, Baggio.

#InBeforeFieroDefendsGerrard

 

[PaoloMaldini3]

^The easiest part there is to rank Lampard and Gerrard. Right at the bottom. The second easiest is to rank the top two - Zidane, Baggio.

#InBeforeFieroDefendsGerrard

Gerrard is MY fav. player..

 

[Casualista]

iniesta, zidane and add xavi to that list... easily on top.

lamps gerrard on the bottom

 

[necromancer]

Gerrard is MY fav. player..

Inspirational guy for Liverpool, but nowhere near the rest of the guys you listed in terms of talent.

 

[dhorasoo]

Yeah I know about the absences of DeRossi and Nesta. My point is that Italy's focus was on defense first. I could have seen Italy won the WC without Pirlo and with a prime Montolivo for instance (hypothetically of course). However I must say that some of the best passing I've ever seen came from him and Riquelme in that tournament

Debatable, since Montolivo's playmaking skills are nowhere near those of Pirlo. To me, Monto has it all: great runner, tactically aware, defensively sound, good passing. But ask him to dictate play, make a midfield tick (WC 2010 comes to mind) and he falls short. I think he would have thrived under a regista like Pirlo (look at him and Liverani in his Fiorentina days), but him being the playmaker, the one that keeps it all together, I'm unsure. Monto is better when he can drift aside, look for space, receiving the ball between the midfield and attack, as opposed to him staying around the midfield circle.

Like I said before, with Gattuso, Perrotta and Camoranesi in the team, you needed somebody stringing it all together. To me, Montolivo couldn't have done the same. Replace Monto with Perrotta or Camoranesi, on the other hand, then yes, maybe you'd get the same result. He can do the same things those guys did (Camoranesi was something special though, he was a beast beating his man one on one)..

 

[Soldier_of_god]

wasnt camoranesi and perrotta wingers? how can monty play there. monty is a beast at RCM and if italy back in 2006 utilized a formation which integrates an RM, he would thrive in it. comparing pirlo to zidane is stupid, cause they are totally different players, all you can say is who was better in their respective position. zidane in his prime was the best playmaker in the world, I could say the same for peerlo in his respective position but who was more consistent? I believe they both have won everything there is to win, yet I just feel zidane has been more consistent overall in comparison with peerlo, particularly cuz peerlo had disappeared in numerous games after that 07 season. he was mediocre for 2 whole years until ibra arrived.

 

[leaf]

^The easiest part there is to rank Lampard and Gerrard. Right at the bottom. The second easiest is to rank the top two - Zidane, Baggio.

#InBeforeFieroDefendsGerrard

+1 Gerrard and Lamps don't belong in this list and Totti does

 

[necromancer]

wasnt camoranesi and perrotta wingers? how can monty play there. monty is a beast at RCM and if italy back in 2006 utilized a formation which integrates an RM, he would thrive in it. comparing pirlo to zidane is stupid, cause they are totally different players, all you can say is who was better in their respective position. zidane in his prime was the best playmaker in the world, I could say the same for peerlo in his respective position but who was more consistent? I believe they both have won everything there is to win, yet I just feel zidane has been more consistent overall in comparison with peerlo, particularly cuz peerlo had disappeared in numerous games after that 07 season. he was mediocre for 2 whole years until ibra arrived.

Perrotta played as an inside wide midfielder or whatever people call them these days. Italy's formation was a 4-4-1-1 with one of the wide midfielders playing narrower (Perrotta) and the other playing wider (Camo). Pirlo-Gattuso in the centre and Totti behind Luca Toni upfront.

Montolivo could have played that Perrotta position very well. That's the one that would have suited him the most in the 2006 team. (Incidentally, El Shaarawy could have played that Camoranesi position very well, I think)..

It's unfair from Zidane's point of view to compare him with Pirlo in 2006. Zizou's peak was back in 1998, when he lorded over football (along with Ronaldo).. Pirlo was at his prime in 2006 and a level above Zidane. Of course we are talking about two different types of players, but one can compare over sheer awesomeness.

 

[AsparagusFC]

mcmanaman? lol

 

[The Black Pearl]

1. Lorenzo Buffon, Rossi or Dida heh, Dida was pretty amazing in his prime, i d say he was shortly world s best gk around 2003
2. Cafu was better ofensivly n much worse in defence. If i had both in their prime available i do go with cafu only when down 3-0 in first leg, in all other scenarios Tassotti.
3. Idk what to say both are great, never saw some1 owning a player lately as Stam did to Adriano in his prime durin our clash with Inter in CL 2005. He literaly took all balls Adriano recived by crushing him to the grownd with no foul lol.
4. Another tough one i d say Desailly was better in defence and than i figure that i dont remember a footballer that had more interceptions than prime gattuso. Desailly had slightly better passing game imo coz gattuso was simply awful there.
5. Rijkaard was dmf/cmf i d say he s the best dmf of all time if i have to chose 1 position.
6. Gullit played as ss/cf/amf and rmf for us, i d say he s natural position was amf. He even played as a sweeeper for chelski when he was player-coach there in late 90´s. But only for a short time tough.
7. Marco Van Basten in front of Nordhal and Sheva, i d say healthy Marco is the best pure CF of all the time without any doubt.
8. Kaka in 2007. is the best among them, neither Seedorf or Rui ever shined so brightly
9. Nesta by far, healthy Nesta can be compared and debated wether he s better than the best of all time- Baresi.

 

[Soldier_of_god]

If kaka was important in the 2007 UCL triumph, seedorf and gattuso were equally important as well.

 

[manutd fan]

As for defending, I'm kinda disappointed that you don't think the quality has declined....think of the list of Maldini, Cannavaro, Stam, Hierro, Thuram, Puyol Nesta, Cafu of last generation and honestly tell me...we have a MUCH smaller list in A. Cole, Thiago Silva and possibly Pique who has the presence that is comparable to the aforementioned.....and yes I agree Varane is fucking awesome as well and may soon join the elite.

I'd add a few others to the list - Vidic and Ferdinand namely but also Terry, though they're coming to an end too.
But I do agree that there's less great defenders, but to counter balance it I think the forwards are better these days.

 

[jammin]

How the hell does less great defenders and better attackers "counter-balance"?

 

[necromancer]

 

[Fiero]

#InBeforeFieroDefendsGerrard

This is extra painful since I've always preferred Lampard to Gerrard. Horrible discussion though.

 

[jammin]

Terry >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferdinand, just for the record.

 

[The Black Pearl]

If kaka was important in the 2007 UCL triumph, seedorf and gattuso were equally important as well.

If kaka was important in the UCL 2007. triumph? He was simply amazing imo and most important piece of our team. I consider that CL of his to be one of best individual efforts in football s history. Rino and Dorf were great as well, special mention deserve Pippo who scored 2 goals in final, and Nesta who picked up first foul, in whole 2007. CL campaign, in final game. Simply unbelivable from all of them but Kaka was the best among great imo.

P.S. that doesnt mean i want RIcky back tough

 

[leaf]

I'd add a few others to the list - Vidic and Ferdinand namely but also Terry, though they're coming to an end too.
But I do agree that there's less great defenders, but to counter balance it I think the forwards are better these days.

See below

Better attackers and worse defenders would exacerbate the issue and inflate the stats no? Fucking Barca and Real Madrid get a penalty almost every game. I remember a time when a penalty wasn't so common as it is today.

Ferdinand is great but I really can't put him in the class of Nesta and co (not this shit again ). John Terry is good as well but overall as a player I'd rate him below Ferdinand and by the aforementioned assumptions FAR beneath Nesta and Cannavaro. Vidic is class though but so slow....Stam shits all over him to be honest. Face it, our era is shit defensively.

A revolting combination of greed, the premiership's commercial dominance and fifa's moronic decisions are responsible for this. The "thinkers" or the cerebral players are becoming an endangered specie in today's game that (over) emphasizes pace, strength and fitness. The balls are lighter and follow less predictable trajectories, enhancing the possibility of "errant" or fluke goals.

In the era where defenders could manhandle attackers and get away with it, scoring came at a (rightful) premium. Now Italy can get past Australia with a zero contact dive

Fucking Pele didn't used to get half the calls he deserved because he was black ffs Nowadays players can get banned for months for saying racist shit.

Tackles from behind are straight red card etc etc...Attackers are far more protected and dare I say assisted by the legislation of the game. Hence don't fucking ask me to view average players with inflated stats the same as I viewed Batigol and fucking Ronaldo