Riccardo Montolivo Thread

Senatore_M84 said:

If you think Nocerino has been our best midfielder, I really can't help you. I only can ask you WHY?

He DOESN'T tackle. That's a simple fact. He runs, with no end gain.
To put it in perspective, Montolivo has over double the tackles and triple the recorded interceptions. And personally I think Montolivo's been poor this year.

Nocerino is scoring a lot, and good for him. His plays also forcing zlatan, robinho and co. infinitely deeper to create so he can run forward. This is led to precious pato being unable to play in our lineup

If we had a midfielder like montolivo who could pass and defend, and hold his position, robinho/cassano/zlatan wouldn't need to drop so deep




Aquilani's influence immediately dropped off after he was used in a deeper position than 'nocegol'. All his assists came earlier on when we allowed him to push forward more AND nocerino sat deep.

But guess what in those games nocerino was holding position more we were conceding like maniacs. Why? Cause unlike other CMs who actually record a tackle, Nocerino chases shadows.

Not an impressive player. Not at all.

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There's no bias here... fact of matter is aquilani and montolivo both have more tackles and interceptions than Nocerino

If Nocerino wasn't scoring goals he'd literally be worthless.

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And no... i'm not particularly in love with ANY of our 4 midfielders. But if you ask me weakest link... it's nocerino.

Before you go making up conjectures ashy, i'm really not bias. I hate all 4 mids we start equally. Now go eat another donut

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Nocerino has been our best midfielder because of one thing... because he's the only midfielder who has done his job. Before you judge Nocerino, you have to ask yourself what his job is. I don't think you've understood that yet. None of Aquilani, MVB, Ambro, Seedorf and even Boateng have done their job. Noce is the last player to blame for because our midfield is shit, that's what makes him the best out of the gang.

You can't just say that he doesn't tackle and because of that he's shit, it's very simplistic to do that... I agree that he doesn't tackle much, but how much space does he close down? Is that not an important thing? Closing down space is also something that none of our other midfielders are good at... none of them have the legs.

Talking about legs, none of our midfielders bar Boateng and Nocerino have them. We really need the running in midfield. Not only offensive runs, but also runs back to defense and "side ways".

So if you're saying that he runs "with no end gain", then I can't help you either. Think about it, is it really with no end?

If we today also had Montolivo in our squad, it's not the obvious choice to put Nocerino on the bench. Monto and Aqua are very similar players, and I have to give Monto the edge, I think he's a more stable player.

There's almost always bias when it comes to you, don't really understand why. Like I've told you before, you make your mind up for something, and then base your arguments after that. Now you suddenly think Nocerino is useless, and grasp for every little straw to show that... same goes for Ibra for example. Two players who has been given a lot of praise for their performances. When you discuss them it's like the only things that exist with them is the negative things, the positives is almost of out the discussion because they don't suit your arguments.

Your take on Ibra and especially Noce are prime examples of that.

Congo Powers said:

montolivo>nocerino

of course riccardo can play with alberto

more quality .. montolivo is rlly underrated here.

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Is it fair to compare them though? And in what parts of the game is he better than Noce? In everything?

Why don't you compare Monto and Aqua? Isn't that the more obvious comparison to do? Monto may be underrated here, I don't like him that much, but he's also overrated by some.

Adding Montolivo would allow Aquilani to take over Nocerino's role of box to box runner, while Monty would stay deeper and play the more reserved. We would thus get the best out of Aquilani who is better higher up with more freedom and not being burdened with deep buildup, which is not his strong point.

Montolivo is better at that deeper more involved buildup role. So we would be getting the best out of a better player in Aquilani, rather than an inferior player (Nocerino). It simply makes more sense to have your better players flourishing in their more natural roles than burdening them in roles that they needs to take to cover up the deficiencies of their inferior teammates. Although Montolivo is not my first choice, he would be an imediate starter and an upgrade to our possession shy and defensively poor midfield.

what is senatore's take on ibra mb?

nocerino has been invaluable so far...i dont think senatore would dispute that. but...montolivo would clearly change the composition of the midfield only because he is capable of more. this has nothing to do with nocerino's shortcomings...just, montolivo is a bigger player than him.

@ mb-----montolivo has a comfort in possession that nocerino will never have. he can also cover more ground. he is smarter in using the ball and is capable of passes that nocerino is not. he is a superior player. saying this, i love nocerino. i can see montolivo playing anchor with noce and aquilani beside him....boss as anchor with monto+aqui...really any combination. montolivo would be a huge asset. versatile asset.

and prince is our best midfielder.

Congo Powers said:

what is senatore's take on ibra mb?

nocerino has been invaluable so far...i dont think senatore would dispute that. but...montolivo would clearly change the composition of the midfield only because he is capable of more. this has nothing to do with nocerino's shortcomings...just, montolivo is a bigger player than him.

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You have to ask him.

And I don't think he finds Nocerino as invaluable, his posts doesn't imply that anyway.

Noce isn't only about the goals, even though his goals has been a very big part of his success. His runs are very important for us.

@ mb-----montolivo has a comfort in possession that nocerino will never have. he can also cover more ground. he is smarter in using the ball and is capable of passes that nocerino is not. he is a superior player. saying this, i love nocerino. i can see montolivo playing anchor with noce and aquilani beside him....boss as anchor with monto+aqui...really any combination. montolivo would be a huge asset. versatile asset.

and prince is our best midfielder.

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I don't disagree with most of this. But there are stuff Noce has that Monto lacks. It's not like Noce is useless compared to Montolivo. That's why I think some of you really overrate montolivo... remember his age and achievements so far. I'm not saying that Noce is the perfect player and he may very well be benched for any combination depending on opposition.

And I disagree about prince, I'm not impressed by him all that much. He's more of a reason why Ibra has to play deep than Nocerino.

MilanMB said:

You have to ask him.

And I don't think he finds Nocerino as invaluable, his posts doesn't imply that anyway.

Noce isn't only about the goals, even though his goals has been a very big part of his success. His runs are very important for us.



I don't disagree with most of this. But there are stuff Noce has that Monto lacks. It's not like Noce is useless compared to Montolivo. That's why I think some of you really overrate montolivo... remember his age and achievements so far. I'm not saying that Noce is the perfect player and he may very well be benched for any combination depending on opposition.

And I disagree about prince, I'm not impressed by him all that much. He's more of a reason why Ibra has to play deep than Nocerino.

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yes i agree..i think if we bring in montolivo, both him and nocerino would be big contributors for us. i really hope to see this happen..whatever starting/bench/rotation configuration would occur. montolivo for me would just add so much towards becoming a balanced/versatile midfield.

for me, prince should only wait outside of the opposition's box...he shouldn't be allowed to go anywhere else...

I wouldn't take Nocerino out of the team for nothing right now. He's in the form of his life, scoring many goals. In case Montolivo comes, I also see him taking the place from Aquilani or Van Bommel, if he actually takes someone's place. However, there are games that I certainly would take Nocerino out of the team no matter his form. I wouldn't dare to put him against barcelona, for example, because of their insane pressing. Nocerino would get eaten. In games like that, I think it's much better to field your most talented players. We've also get a game against Arsenal. Even though I think they'll press well, I think Nocerino would fit well in a high tempo game that we could face.

Having Nocerino and Montolivo could give us many options for different games and situations. I usually prefer to see a talented midfield rather than a hard-working one (better if I had both together), but I wouldn't drop a player in great form just for the sake of it.

Danilo JBG said:

I wouldn't take Nocerino out of the team for nothing right now. He's in the form of his life, scoring many goals. In case Montolivo comes, I also see him taking the place from Aquilani or Van Bommel, if he actually takes someone's place. However, there are games that I certainly would take Nocerino out of the team no matter his form. I wouldn't dare to put him against barcelona, for example, because of their insane pressing. Nocerino would get eaten. In games like that, I think it's much better to field your most talented players. We've also get a game against Arsenal. Even though I think they'll press well, I think Nocerino would fit well in a high tempo game that we could face.

Having Nocerino and Montolivo could give us many options for different games and situations. I usually prefer to see a talented midfield rather than a hard-working one (better if I had both together), but I wouldn't drop a player in great form just for the sake of it.

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Agreed.


Nocerino is the LCM. End of Story. As far as I'm concerned Gattuso is the first man to come in (Over Seedorf & Ambro & Flamini) for Aquilani (defensive purposes). Boateng is the ACM.

As for CDM, Van Bommel & Montolivo can share that position. If they both get shot in the head and die, then Ambrosini can play there.

Nocerino was supposedly a midfielder with defensive duties. He doesn't defend that well. In fact, he's so bad defensively that Aquilani's offensive creativity has to be compromised to make up for Noce's defensive shortcomings.

His best contribution to the team has been scoring. Credit where it's due, he has great positioning and fantatic work rate, but that's about it. He lacks the technique or passing range or even shooting (yes long shots, all his goals were tap ins) to be a good offensive midfielder for the team. And he lacks the grit and the tackling ability to be a ball winning midfielder, or the intelligence and composure to play as an anchor.

In other words, Nocerino might not be doing bad in the current setup, but his presence limits the team from growing. He's in great form currently, but in the long term, he's not someone to depend on as a starter. In fact, based on ability not on form, Nocerino is the weakest link in midfield. He's having his moment now, but in a couple of months the goals will fade and people will start to realize his limitation.

He's a good squad player, nothing more. Montolivo should be signed to replace him in the starting line-up.

Fiero said:

Nocerino was supposedly a midfielder with defensive duties. He doesn't defend that well. In fact, he's so bad defensively that Aquilani's offensive creativity has to be compromised to make up for Noce's defensive shortcomings.

His best contribution to the team has been scoring. Credit where it's due, he has great positioning and fantatic work rate, but that's about it. He lacks the technique or passing range or even shooting (yes long shots, all his goals were tap ins) to be a good offensive midfielder for the team. And he lacks the grit and the tackling ability to be a ball winning midfielder, or the intelligence and composure to play as an anchor.

In other words, Nocerino might not be doing bad in the current setup, but his presence limits the team from growing. He's in great form currently, but in the long term, he's not someone to depend on as a starter. In fact, based on ability not on form, Nocerino is the weakest link in midfield. He's having his moment now, but in a couple of months the goals will fade and people will start to realize his limitation.

He's a good squad player, nothing more. Montolivo should be signed to replace him in the starting line-up.

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You make valid points but I don't think Montolivo is a great player either. As for Nocerino, I remember when he came up with Juventus and played in their first season back in Serie A, and he was considered the "new Gattuso" but he's very small (5'6 or 175 cm) and slim shoulders & weak. He's not like Gattuso. He has tons of energy though, and it's something our midfield desperately lacked the past few years. So, we must thank him for that. It may take many years before we see a trio like:
Seedorf-Pirlo-Gattuso in their primes...

Fiero said:

Nocerino was supposedly a midfielder with defensive duties. He doesn't defend that well. In fact, he's so bad defensively that Aquilani's offensive creativity has to be compromised to make up for Noce's defensive shortcomings.

His best contribution to the team has been scoring. Credit where it's due, he has great positioning and fantatic work rate

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Defending is 80 percent about positioning and work rate. Great sliding tackles and such are just extras.

Nocerino is crucial to Milan! Not because he is scoring but because he is very valuable for the team both in defence and offence.

In defence because he sees dangerous open spaces and takes the runs to get there. He also often force opponents to do misstakes.
In offence because he moves constantly and creating open spaces for him self and others.

It is no coincidence that we almost never win when Nocerino has been on the bench.


Aquilani the other hand is overrated and thats where we need Montolivo.

Fiero said:

Nocerino was supposedly a midfielder with defensive duties. He doesn't defend that well. In fact, he's so bad defensively that Aquilani's offensive creativity has to be compromised to make up for Noce's defensive shortcomings.

His best contribution to the team has been scoring. Credit where it's due, he has great positioning and fantatic work rate, but that's about it. He lacks the technique or passing range or even shooting (yes long shots, all his goals were tap ins) to be a good offensive midfielder for the team. And he lacks the grit and the tackling ability to be a ball winning midfielder, or the intelligence and composure to play as an anchor.

In other words, Nocerino might not be doing bad in the current setup, but his presence limits the team from growing. He's in great form currently, but in the long term, he's not someone to depend on as a starter. In fact, based on ability not on form, Nocerino is the weakest link in midfield. He's having his moment now, but in a couple of months the goals will fade and people will start to realize his limitation.

He's a good squad player, nothing more. Montolivo should be signed to replace him in the starting line-up.

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ok

Campione said:

Defending is 80 percent about positioning and work rate. Great sliding tackles and such are just extras.

Nocerino is crucial to Milan! Not because he is scoring but because he is very valuable for the team both in defence and offence.

In defence because he sees dangerous open spaces and takes the runs to get there. He also often force opponents to do misstakes.
In offence because he moves constantly and creating open spaces for him self and others.

It is no coincidence that we almost never win when Nocerino has been on the bench.


Aquilani the other hand is overrated and thats where we need Montolivo.

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Overrated? He does not have the stamina that Nocerino has; however, he cover more positions than Nocerino does; specially, if ambro is playing.

Hating on Nocerino

The midfield been leaking goals because collectively it has been poor ; it is noway Nocerino fault alone. I have to go back and look at some highlights but I would say Aquilani has cause more goals conceded than Nocerino.

Ah, c'mon. Nocerino isn't the problem now. He may drop his form at some point, but right now he deserves to play, even if he has been more an attacking player than a defensive one. The same happened with Boateng when he started playing well as a trequartista. I think just Allegri would have that idea and there he is.

Football isn't that complicated. I don't think there are hidden problems behind a good form. He's playing well, so he deserves to be in the team. In normal conditions, I'd rather have Montolivo in the lineup instead of Nocerino, but right now I don't think that would be helpful at all.

When I think about it, it actually pretty sad that Montolivo is considered an upgrade to this midfield. Montolivo would be nothing more than a squad player in most top clubs.

Right now Seedorf is basically the only substantial change of style Allegri can do in our starting midfield (and still people think he should be 15 points above Juve)... Now with Gattuso back and Montolivo he would have many more options to work with.

Montolivo is more versatile/complete than our midfielders... He would suit from a more possesion oriented game with Aquilani or Seedorf to a more defensively sound team with Gattuso or whatever. He would work with a runner also.

Sure it's not a world beater midfield, but his arrival would add enough rotation for the players, different possibilities for Allegri to work with at every game, to change games from the midfield and so on.
All in all this deal can make a huge difference.

Montolivo is an upgrade over Van Bommel/Ambrosini. if we sign him and with Flamini and Gattuso coming back from injuries, i doubt if we can make a move for an anchor in the summer, Sandro, Fernando or De Rossi will be very unlikely in this case...

i like Nocerino's workrate, runs to box, movement and positioning, however he still needs to improve, especially on tackles and tactically, otherwise, happy with him.

On the other hand, Montolivo is solid and good passer. im considering him for anchor role, not for LCM role. We need upgrade for LCM as well.

Who says Aquilani is overrated? Again this kind of logic. Just look at his assists. RCM is a new position to him, he just need to get used to there tactically. i think that his defensive game should be better. His from dropped a bit lately, its quite normal, he always played cuz we didnt have a sub for him. Allegri just rested him vs Siena then he had to play him.

if i remember correctly, Gattuso played as CDM under Ancelotti for half season or so. We were at the top, then he is injured. then we gave up on the scudetto race. Gattuso was one of the best players for us, when he played as CDM.

abbeyleemania said:

Montolivo is an upgrade over Van Bommel/Ambrosini. if we sign him and with Flamini and Gattuso coming back from injuries, i doubt if we can make a move for an anchor in the summer, Sandro, Fernando or De Rossi will be very unlikely in this case...

i like Nocerino's workrate, runs to box, movement and positioning, however he still needs to improve, especially on tackles and tactically, otherwise, happy with him.

On the other hand, Montolivo is solid and good passer. im considering him for anchor role, not for LCM role. We need upgrade for LCM as well.

Who says Aquilani is overrated? Again this kind of logic. Just look at his assists. RCM is a new position to him, he just need to get used to there tactically. i think that his defensive game should be better. His from dropped a bit lately, its quite normal, he always played cuz we didnt have a sub for him. Allegri just rested him vs Siena then he had to play him.

if i remember correctly, Gattuso played as CDM under Ancelotti for half season or so. We were at the top, then he is injured. then we gave up on the scudetto race. Gattuso was one of the best players for us, when he played as CDM.

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100% agree. Not many people remember but rino was great at cdm.

Congo Powers said:

what is senatore's take on ibra mb?

nocerino has been invaluable so far...i dont think senatore would dispute that. but...montolivo would clearly change the composition of the midfield only because he is capable of more. this has nothing to do with nocerino's shortcomings...just, montolivo is a bigger player than him.

@ mb-----montolivo has a comfort in possession that nocerino will never have. he can also cover more ground. he is smarter in using the ball and is capable of passes that nocerino is not. he is a superior player. saying this, i love nocerino. i can see montolivo playing anchor with noce and aquilani beside him....boss as anchor with monto+aqui...really any combination. montolivo would be a huge asset. versatile asset.

and prince is our best midfielder.

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I wouldn't say invaluable, but certainly his goals have been big. That said, I'm not sold he's all of a sudden some 12-15 goal scorer. He's scored 6 in his entire serie A career. He has 6 this half season. Honestly.... that's luck.

And the rest of his game is just below par.

However I agree with rest, and sadly, I agree Prince has been our best midfielder. Which is a big reason I think our midfield is not good.

MilanMB said:

You have to ask him.

And I don't think he finds Nocerino as invaluable, his posts doesn't imply that anyway.

Noce isn't only about the goals, even though his goals has been a very big part of his success. His runs are very important for us.



I don't disagree with most of this. But there are stuff Noce has that Monto lacks. It's not like Noce is useless compared to Montolivo. That's why I think some of you really overrate montolivo... remember his age and achievements so far. I'm not saying that Noce is the perfect player and he may very well be benched for any combination depending on opposition.

And I disagree about prince, I'm not impressed by him all that much. He's more of a reason why Ibra has to play deep than Nocerino.

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I might have been harsh on nocerino. I'm just saying if you asked me out of the 3, aquilani, montolivo, nocerino who i'd bench first. It'd be nocerino.

Obviously he has a role as a squad player, but I don't see much more than that. The other two have capability ( and i emphasize, capability, not certainty) to be starters on a ucl contender.

Both are tactically more intelligent.

Montolivo is better tactically, a better defender, abd a better passer than Nocerino.

Aquilani is better passer and much more vision than both. I said it in previous posts but basically, when allegri switched nocerino and aquilani's roles, we've seen more defensive solidarity out of aquilani (who is poor defensively in his own right) and seen less decisiveness from aquilani, because he doesn't get forward. I mean he got 6 assists in first 8-10 games, and then got moved deeper and the assists stopped because he is not a player to play that pirlo long ball... He's more one to float thru midfield and deliver the 5 to 15 yard thru ball.

In an ideal situation Aquilani would be the 'least defensive' of our CM's and given most freedom to go forward and string team. With montolivo this could happen, and then ibra could stay higher up.

The work rate thing is a question but we must remember, aquilani isn't lazy, montolivo isn't lazy and prince would still start. This isn't the 2008 milan with 3 mids who stay home and gattuso running insane covering everyone. And Nocerino would be what i consider first option off bench around 60th to use his work rate to replace whoever's most tired and close our matches. Or in some cases start.

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I simply think Nocerino without the current goal spell, really is below par. He's a poor tackler, he's poor tactically, and his passing is not very good. He's a fine enough in squad role, but i think montolivo is a better player who would upgrade his position.

And i don't particularly love montolivo. Their are mids i'd prefer more for that role.

abbeyleemania said:

if i remember correctly, Gattuso played as CDM under Ancelotti for half season or so. We were at the top, then he is injured. then we gave up on the scudetto race. Gattuso was one of the best players for us, when he played as CDM.

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are you talking 08-09. Cause Rino was RCM then.

Seedorf plays anchor when pirlo was hurt.

Senatore_M84 said:

are you talking 08-09. Cause Rino was RCM then.

Seedorf plays anchor when pirlo was hurt.

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There was a time when Gattuso was played as a CDM because of Pirlo's injury. He played there for the first half of the season, and if I remember correctly, he did quite well. I even recall you and Wild having some arguments about it (Pirlo vs Gattuso in CDM position).

Senatore_M84 said:

are you talking 08-09. Cause Rino was RCM then.

Seedorf plays anchor when pirlo was hurt.

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Yeah... Carlo's last year.

Pirlo was out, Seedorf played DM, Rino was fucking incredible at RCM. We were top. Drew against Cagliari after beating Inter, I believe and it all unravelled.

Anywho, I would welcome Montolivo as long Milan doesn't give him more than Aquilani. He is not the kind of player that should earn a lot. Like many said, he would be a squad player. He would useful to have. Since many midfielders are running out of contract, we can both sign Montolivo and a quality midfielder or two as well, before next season starts. And of course bring (and buy) Merkel and Strasser back.

Reading all this talk about our midfield(ers), I really like the idea of having Strootman as our left-centre midfielder. He would add the defensive part, but also he is a ball playing player. With him Aquilani can add more attacking wise, and we will be better defensively. And of course before next season starts, we need to have a new anchor. Fernando Reges would be awesome. He and Strootman, and our midfield is so much better.

He shouldn't earn a lot? I don't get that. He can "earn" whatever the hell he wants to earn if he shows Allegri ability, effort, consistency and other qualities that coaches like. I personally prefer him over Aqua since he's more complete and consistent.

You seem to be dead set on the idea that he play a certain role on this team and nothing more but you leave out the possibility that he outperforms the players you would have him back up. If we get him he'll get a fair chance to prove himself and then a role will be determined for him. You can't predetermine a role for him at this point but it's obviously one of two things: squad rotation or starter. Whichever one he ends up filling will be due to his performances here. I always have hopes that players to improve with us and it's not like Montolivo is walking into a WC midfield so he'll get his chance.

leopard190 said:

He shouldn't earn a lot? I don't get that. He can "earn" whatever the hell he wants to earn if he shows Allegri ability, effort, consistency and other qualities that coaches like. I personally prefer him over Aqua since he's more complete and consistent.

You seem to be dead set on the idea that he play a certain role on this team and nothing more but you leave out the possibility that he outperforms the players you would have him back up. If we get him he'll get a fair chance to prove himself and then a role will be determined for him. You can't predetermine a role for him at this point but it's obviously one of two things: squad rotation or starter. Whichever one he ends up filling will be due to his performances here. I always have hopes that players to improve with us and it's not like Montolivo is walking into a WC midfield so he'll get his chance.

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Sure, I agree, but doesn't that make him kinda equil to Aquilani? Why should he earn more? He's not Schweinsteiger.

Pedro said:

Sure, I agree, but doesn't that make him kinda equil to Aquilani? Why should he earn more? He's not Schweinsteiger.

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Montolivo has a higher value on the market than Aquilani.

But mostly Montolivo will be better paid than Aquilani because he is nearly out of contract so we will get him cheap.

Montolivo is a great player to have in the squad. For a few mln its a bargain deal... No question about it.

Also, he will not give us the jump in top quality we can get from players like Hamsik, Fabregas etc.

Pedro, did you have the same opinion of Montolivo a year ago?