I haven't seen him live, but I've seen a lot of footage from him and I think I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about.zZ[-_-]Zz said:gaizka my man... are you takin' seriously someone who hasn't even seen van Basten play? if you go through the thread... of the few people like us (havin' seen both players)... only Wild is inchin' towards fat boy... while all of the rest are pretty clear that van Basten is superior...
I hope you feel the same way about Seedorf, Pirlo, Crespo, Meazza, and our Marquee player Brocchiatreides602 said:I've seen both players playn' , they were both top class, dunno , maybe ronaldo was surounded by more hype then mvb , and ronaldo was playng in spain and mvb in italy, were defenses are much more ... let's say profesional, anyway, for me ronaldo stoped to exist the minute he moved to merda ,so mvb no 1 for me .
atreides602 said:mam - ok, let him win a ucl for us , and then we can talk , till then imo mvb is the best.
well done.Milano84 said:i bet mvb would like his world cups though
Milano84 said:i bet mvb would like his world cups though
madtherchot said:As for France '98, no matter what is said, there was only one star in that tournament, and that was Zidane. A player who, IMO, was the best player of his generation. I wont go into a debate of player attributes, but I'm sure the majority of football fans will agree with me when I say he was simply head and shoulders above his peers ... and that includes the "beautiful" player himself. Fat is beautiful
[edited] Starting from the claim that Zidane was 'the star' of France 98 which not only is far from the truth as the poster above said, but its even more ridiculous if you downgrade Ronaldo's WC2002 performance at the same time; and all the way to the dumbest argument ever 'if Sheva was that, then he would this...' If you didn't know, Zidane himself said Ronaldo is the most talented player he's ever seen. Ronaldo was much more than just a WC striker and the years at Barca, Inter and Madrid prove that. I agree fully that Zidane is magic, thats why I put him in the top bracket of legends...but he was a midfielder and Ronaldo is a striker. Both beautiful as it gets in their category. I'm not the only one who thinks Ronaldo is in Pele and Maradona's class, look at football sites and forums, people everywhere are saying it.madtherchot said:One only needs to watch Euro '88 to be convinced. After 6 months-or-so out with an injury, the 22-23 year old then AC Milan striker came in to score a hattrick (or brace) in a must win match against England.
I'll stress my point again. Ronaldo was a great striker. There's no doubting that. But to label him equal to Maradona and Pele is preposterous. Especially since you're ignoring the many brilliant players that are pretty high up there in the second tier of football greats.
Ronaldo will be remember for his World Cup performances. Especially in 2002, where he had a spectacular array of supporting cast (Rivaldo played the most important role IMO), and Brazil's only real difficult matches were against England and a German side that had their best player suspended (all due respect to the other opponents). But credit must be given where its due ... he is the all-time leading WC scorer, which is quite an achievement. But here's an interesting point ... I honestly do think that had Sheva been Brazilian, he would have easily been in Ronaldo's shoes ... and perhaps even scored more
As for France '98, no matter what is said, there was only one star in that tournament, and that was Zidane. A player who, IMO, was the best player of his generation. I wont go into a debate of player attributes, but I'm sure the majority of football fans will agree with me when I say he was simply head and shoulders above his peers ... and that includes the "beautiful" player himself. Fat is beautiful
[edited] That has nothing to do with the discussion or the disrespect you show towards Ronaldo not only as a Milan player but as a LEGEND of world football. We were talking about overall ability and past achievements and you posted quite a bit of nonsense like the Sheva example. [edited]madtherchot said:[edited] Because there was no doubt then that Ronaldo wasn't injury prone, and all blame was of course, Milan Lab's. And there was no possible way that Gilardino would eventually have a better season than Ronaldo (as shitty as that sounds) ... Yep, and as events have turned out, I couldn't possibly have been more correct, and you, well ... wrong.
Again youre trying to turn around your previous ridiculous conclusion that Zidane dominated WC1998 and Ronaldo didn't in 2002. Did Zidane not have a talented bunch behind him which even managed to eliminate opponents without him? Wouldn't France be a champion without the fantastic goalie and back four, and Djorkaeff, Petit, Deschamps? No world cup winning team has been crap you know, but that doesn't mean Ronaldo's achievement in 2002 is to be devalued. He was better than Rivaldo in 2002. End of. As far as complete players go I never said Zidane wasn't, but so was Ronaldo, only in a more striker oriented way. And he had the whoa element, the flashyness & attractiveness which separated him from other complete strikers, including Van Basten as his closest.madtherchot said:In the same way, its not possible to think that Zidane is in fact the more complete footballer, and that Ronaldo did indeed have quite a talented bunch behind him in '02. And perhaps Brazil wouldn't be five time champs had it not been for ... Rivaldo. All this is preposterous nonsense ...
Ronaldo being on Pele and Maradona level is my opinion as well, but its backed up by many and that gives it more weight. Ronaldo has incredible football intelligence which I don't think is lower than any other player in history and his instinct for positioning (meaning making runs onto throughballs as a much more difficult task than getting in the right position when youre in the box to tap or head in) is better than Van Basten's.madtherchot said:And I don't need to look around other websites to substantiate my opions ... I've seen and I've compared, and surprise, I've come up with an opinion of my own. MVB was probably the best forward ever ... was surely a better passer, team player, airier threat + poacher than Ronaldo. He wasn't your stereotypical fancy Brazilian dribbler, but he used intelligent routines at the right time ... and IMO proved more effective. I have no doubt whatsoever that he had the better 'football brain' as did Zidane, and no power, strength, or indeed fetish can make up for it.
You're not many things.madtherchot said:PS. Of course I'm not beautiful you idiot
madtherchot said:One only needs to watch Euro '88 to be convinced. After 6 months-or-so out with an injury, the 22-23 year old then AC Milan striker came in to score a hattrick (or brace) in a must win match against England.
I'll stress my point again. Ronaldo was a great striker. There's no doubting that. But to label him equal to Maradona and Pele is preposterous. Especially since you're ignoring the many brilliant players that are pretty high up there in the second tier of football greats.
Ronaldo will be remember for his World Cup performances. Especially in 2002, where he had a spectacular array of supporting cast (Rivaldo played the most important role IMO), and Brazil's only real difficult matches were against England and a German side that had their best player suspended (all due respect to the other opponents). But credit must be given where its due ... he is the all-time leading WC scorer, which is quite an achievement. But here's an interesting point ... I honestly do think that had Sheva been Brazilian, he would have easily been in Ronaldo's shoes ... and perhaps even scored more
As for France '98, no matter what is said, there was only one star in that tournament, and that was Zidane. A player who, IMO, was the best player of his generation. I wont go into a debate of player attributes, but I'm sure the majority of football fans will agree with me when I say he was simply head and shoulders above his peers ... and that includes the "beautiful" player himself. Fat is beautiful
atreides602 said:Ronaldo was indeed the star in 1998 wc , i still remember the parmalat comercial, when a young ronaldo was feed by his moom with a good glass of milk
Comparing Zidane 2 Ronaldo isnt fair coz both play in a different position.about Ronaldo said:Excuse me for interfering, but you are tripping. If you think Ronaldo did not have a marquee game during that period, then you have not paid enough attention to the season.
Your point is moot because Ronaldo had the necessary marquee game in order to be considered the best in the world.
I can give you some examples. For instance, take the game against Valencia at the beginning of November 1996. In that game, Ronaldo scores twice after running through the middle of Valencia's defense and another one with a powerful finish from about 20 yards. And the last goal, after succesfully taking on 4 defenders, was a game winner !
I can point out a similar performance against Atletico (and no, Atletico did not suck as much as now in 1997) in April 1997, when he scored a hat-trick against them, one of his goal being again of the highest quality, a faint to the right to beat the defender and a perfect shot from more than 20 yards.
Since the game against Compostela was mentioned, every one remembers that goal, but does anyone remembedr that match ? How Ronaldo played ? Barca beat Compostela 5 - 1, Ronaldo scored twice and created two other goals, one after he left a defender on his ass with an elastico and another one with one of his shots being deflected into the net by a defender. Two goals and two assists, after superb plays, what more can be said ?
In regard to that game, there is only one player I've seen to have a similar goal/assist ratio in a match on a regular basis and that is Edson Arantes do Nascimento. If you have watched games of Pele in his pomp, you'll know what I mean.
Ronaldo was unlikely to reach the same number of assists, because as a number 9 he does not get in the position to supply his teammates as much as a number 10 (Pele), yet it seems that he was developing fast this aspect of his game. The game against Denmark in 1998, when Ronaldo puts through balls for Rivaldo and Bebeto, stands evidence.
So, actually Ronaldo had such games against Valencia and At.Madrid. Plus I think there was also a 3 - 2 against Madrid in Copa del Rey with a top-class performance of Ronaldo. Can't recall details of that one though since Copa del Rey wasn't broadcasted in my country.
Add to this his performances day in day out in La Liga. The all-time goals. The plays. Etc, Etc.
Besides there is another issue. Ronaldo was implementing at the time a style of fotball which was rarely seen in the history of football. The player-alien who battles entire defenses on his own and beats them singlehandedly, cutting through hordes of opposing players as if they weren't there. It's a very explosive style and it's so rare because it requires a package of abilities which very few players posess, each honed to perfection :
- exquisite dribbling skills, in order to beat defenses in tight confines and players appearing in front of you at full speed ; and I'm not talking about dribbling skills a la Ronaldinho or whatever, I'm talking about dribbling abilities good enough to put you on par with the finest dribblers that ever existed, like Canhoteiro, Matthews, Pele, Garrincha, Best, Jairzinho, Cruyff, Maradona, etc. I found it amusing all the hype about C.Ronaldo's step-over, when in comparison with Ronaldo's original step-over from 1996-1998, who was performed at full speed (see his goal against Lazio in the UEFA cup 1998, the way the sends the keeper to pick daysies with a step-over for evidence) is nothing but schoolplay ;
- great speed in order to outrun defenders closing down of you ;
- great strength in order to resist charges, so that defenders could not push you off balance.
Injuries robbed Ronaldo of what could have been his prime, because this is a style which, in order to be performed succesfully, required 100% use of the player's physical qualities.
But There has been only 3 top-class players who combined all these 3 aspects and managed to put to use this type of game : Pele (1959-1966), Maradona (1979-1987) and Ronaldo (1996-1998) (with Eusebio close behind).
Besides, Ronaldo had other qualities added to that package.
Look at his finishings for instance. Ronaldo's finishing was equal to the greatest finishers in the game, Pele, Muller, Van Basten and Romario. It was simply perfect. There has been no striker in current football who can finish like prime Ronaldo ! NONE ! No Eto'o, no Henry, Shevchenko, Van Nistelrooy, Shearer, Batistuta, Inzaghi, Raul, etc. In fact, the precision of those finishings reminds me of Zico's passing : it's simply milimetric. What made it even more remarkable was the fact that this fellow was capable to hit the ball perfectly at full speed, without slowing down a bit ! Can you imagine the difficulty to apply such finishings while dashing towards the goal ?
One of Ronaldo's particularities in his Barca days was to spot openings in the opposite defenses and dash towards the goal (and thanks to his formidable acceleration, it was very hard - practically impossible, I would say - for defenders to catch up with him). So, I would point out Ronaldo's excelent positioning for the long balls and through balls of De la Pena, Giovanni or Figo. His ability to free himself of the marking is EXQUISITE. Ronaldo had an excellent ability to spot and exploit the gaps in the opposite defenses, dashing towards the goal. Maradona or Zico, for instance, had this ability too, but they used it rather to create chances for their teammates rather than score themselves, hence their magnificent through balls, which represent the supreme mastery of his skill which has ever been seen on a football pitch.
There is also Ronaldo's ability to carry a ball from midfield towards the box at full speed which was the best in history and equal to Eusebio's. The difference between them was that Ronaldo usually prefered clinical finishings from 10-18 yards, while Eusebio will send you a cannon from around 16-30 yards, because he was a superior long range shooter.
The point is that Ronaldo had all-time great (and I'm refering to the highest class of all-timers, like Pele and company) written all over him. Only Pele had a superior package.
It can be questioned whether he was better than all-time greats likeMaradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano or even Pele. IMO, he was not, because he was still a raw product and at the time it's perfectly true that he did not have a marquee performances on an all-time scale in order to propel him up there with Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, etc.
What makes me hesitate on the issue was that Ronaldo's performance in the 6 trophy clincher games he played in 1996-1998 (twice against Real and Juve in the league, against PSG in C2 in 1997 and Lazio in the C3 in 1998) was not something truly historical. His game against Lazio, the best of the bunch, was class, but IMO not all-time material. Had he overcome this obstacle (utterly destroy one elite opponent in a big game - championship derby against the main title contenders or big final at WC Level or European Cup), then what he did in 1996-1998 could be considered top 3 ever (or maybe even the best, depends on everyone's preference). But for him being best player in the world at the time, it was more than enough.
Apps (Gls)Wild said:Am not good in finding statistics , but can any1 post stats of em ?