Official Basketball thread(NBA; EuroLeague etc)

fertygo · Jun 21, 2011

Sasha said:
Just throwing isaiah in there to confuse you a bit. IMO Hakeem isn't top 10. Top 15 yes, and there is no shame in that.

Hakeem winning without elite support, that's need to count for something IMO

And his talent just over the chart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2nJ618F-3Q

Its difficult to name player that better than him.

Senatore_M84 · Jun 21, 2011

The Dream was an amazing player. Again 25-28 points, 12-14 rebounds, 4 blocks a game... elite offensive arsenal, elite defense.

Best footwork of ANY big man ever (natural because he grew up a footballer). The things he did as a 7 footer, only Kareem was like him.

The teams he was on for bulk of his career were REALLY bad though. Fact he never got a 2nd banana like pippen or kobe (for shaq) isn't really his fault. Just poor management

I mean you do know who was on team who won it all right? Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry. I mean they are all good role players but not a single all star their

----

He was a level about Ewing and the Admiral. (both were great)

Senatore_M84 · Jun 21, 2011

I want to talk about 88-89 season. Doug Collins decided since MJ was by far his best player (at this point Scottie was in his 2nd year and hadn't developeD), he wanted to use MJ as a point guard. Jordan had never played PG in his life.

Result? He averaged 32.5 points, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 2.9 steals. Shot 53.8% from the field and for those of who who understand efficency, he had a TS% of .614 (ridiculous for a player who takes that volume)

MJ could do EVERYTHING.

He was a career .497 fg%, and that's tarnished by 4 extra years when he was 38-42 coming out of his second retirement. He had 6 years in his prime well over 50% which is ridiculous for a guard or wing player

If you really wanna know, Kobe is a career .454 fg% and his career high was .469 a number jordan bested 10 of his seasons.

fertygo · Jun 21, 2011

Senatore_M84 said:
The Dream was an amazing player. Again 25-28 points, 12-14 rebounds, 4 blocks a game... elite offensive arsenal, elite defense.

Best footwork of ANY big man ever (natural because he grew up a footballer). The things he did as a 7 footer, only Kareem was like him.

He was a level about Ewing and the Admiral. (both were great)

Admiral is great player btw, but the fact he used to got ass raped by Hakeem and Shaq makes his reputation down a bit.

But that just tell you how great player like Hakeem, Shaq, or Duncan.

Congo Powers · Jun 21, 2011

senatore, dru, u speak truth about MJ.

but, regarding kobe, i have 1 thing 2 say. 81.

fertygo · Jun 21, 2011

Senatore_M84 said:
I want to talk about 88-89 season. Doug Collins decided since MJ was by far his best player (at this point Scottie was in his 2nd year and hadn't developeD), he wanted to use MJ as a point guard. Jordan had never played PG in his life.

Result? He averaged 32.5 points, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 2.9 steals. Shot 53.8% from the field and for those of who who understand efficency, he had a TS% of .614 (ridiculous for a player who takes that volume)

MJ could do EVERYTHING.

He was a career .497 fg%, and that's tarnished by 4 extra years when he was 38-42 coming out of his second retirement. He had 6 years in his prime well over 50% which is ridiculous for a guard or wing player

If you really wanna know, Kobe is a career .454 fg% and his career high was .469 a number jordan bested 10 of his seasons.

Lets ignore the fact MJ barely shot 650 3PT on his career, n much of slasher than kobe, kay...

the fg% argument is the lamest bait when its comes to MJ vs Kobe debate

MJ >>>>>>>> Kobe, but no need to tell how MJ FG% is high when MJ playing like 3rd FC player on offense.

Senatore_M84 · Jun 21, 2011

fertygo said:
Admiral is great player btw, but the fact he used to got ass raped by Hakeem and Shaq makes his reputation down a bit.

But that just tell you how great player like Hakeem, Shaq, or Duncan.

admiral and ewing were great. It speaks to quality of centers now being down. I like Dwight, but I don't think he's on Ewing or Robinson's level just yet even and hes best center in NBA

fertygo said:
Lets ignore the fact MJ barely shot 650 3PT on his career, n much of slasher than kobe, kay...

the fg% argument is the lamest bait when its comes to MJ vs Kobe debate

MJ >>>>>>>> Kobe, but no need to tell how MJ FG% is high when MJ playing like 3rd FC player on offense.

and kobe's a pretty mediocre 3 point shooter LARGELY CAUSE HE TAKES BAD SHOTS. .339% on 3's is below league average. If you can't hit about 36% it's considered an inefficient shot.

People can paint it anyway they want but MJ didn't take bad shots because he was good enough to always get in the right position. He was so strong and so skilled no one could keep him out of his spots.

BTW MJ shot 1778 3 pointers. where'd you get 650?

drucurl · Jun 21, 2011

Senatore_M84 said:
The Dream was an amazing player. Again 25-28 points, 12-14 rebounds, 4 blocks a game... elite offensive arsenal, elite defense.

Best footwork of ANY big man ever (natural because he grew up a footballer). The things he did as a 7 footer, only Kareem was like him.

The teams he was on for bulk of his career were REALLY bad though. Fact he never got a 2nd banana like pippen or kobe (for shaq) isn't really his fault. Just poor management

I mean you do know who was on team who won it all right? Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry. I mean they are all good role players but not a single all star their

----

He was a level about Ewing and the Admiral. (both were great)

Clyde the glide Drexler

Senatore_M84 said:
admiral and ewing were great. It speaks to quality of centers now being down. I like Dwight, but I don't think he's on Ewing or Robinson's level just yet even and hes best center in NBA

and kobe's a pretty mediocre 3 point shooter LARGELY CAUSE HE TAKES BAD SHOTS. .339% on 3's is below league average. If you can't hit about 36% it's considered an inefficient shot.

People can paint it anyway they want but MJ didn't take bad shots because he was good enough to always get in the right position. He was so strong and so skilled no one could keep him out of his spots.

BTW MJ shot 1778 3 pointers. where'd you get 650?

Exactly....MJ was a ballhog too as well to be fair, it's just that he'd work his way into a comfortable spot then shoot. Kobe would kinda toss it up from anywhere. It was a great sight when he was hitting them though.

fertygo · Jun 21, 2011

Senatore_M84 said:
and kobe's a pretty mediocre 3 point shooter LARGELY CAUSE HE TAKES BAD SHOTS. .339% on 3's is below league average. If you can't hit about 36% it's considered an inefficient shot.

People can paint it anyway they want but MJ didn't take bad shots because he was good enough to always get in the right position. He was so strong and so skilled no one could keep him out of his spots.

BTW MJ shot 1778 3 pointers. where'd you get 650?

shiet, wrong in looking number :fp:

... but the point stand, kobe shoot more 2000+ 3PT than MJ, attacking basket more than Kobe ever do in his career ETC.

And oh, MJ reputation as ball hog isn't better than kobe too before his 4th ring.

Dottore Joey · Jun 21, 2011

MJ and Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lebron James

Senatore_M84 · Jun 21, 2011

drucurl said:
Clyde the glide Drexler

Didn't get the glyde till he was 32 though

. Imagine if he had him or someone else in his prime, they would have been up against MJ's bulls or maybe even lakers/pistons/celtics...

Exactly....MJ was a ballhog too as well to be fair, it's just that he'd work his way into a comfortable spot then shoot. Kobe would kinda toss it up from anywhere. It was a great sight when he was hitting them though.

yeah it's not about being a ball hog as much as shot selection. You can hog the ball all you want if you're making them at a high rate.

fertygo · Jun 21, 2011

Senatore_M84 said:
yeah it's not about being a ball hog as much as shot selection. You can hog the ball all you want if you're making them at a high rate.

Or if you hogging the ball ala Lebron in finals.

Senatore_M84 · Jun 21, 2011

Here's an interesting Michael Jordan quote from 6-8 monthd ago. Talking about playing now v. Kobe

"Based on these rules, if I had to play with my style of play, I'm pretty sure I would have fouled out or I would have been at the free throw line pretty often and I could have scored 100 points."

Oh, but he wasn't done. When asked where Kobe ranks on the all time list, the man most put at the top, told the USA Today:

"It's so hard to say... If you are talking about guards, I would say he has got to be in the top 10."
----

He's right. In Jordan's era play was ALOT dirtier. You could handcheck, you could be more physical. Now ref's call games a lot softer. Someone like Jordan would literally take 20 free throws a game like it was nothing.

fertygo · Jun 21, 2011

Senatore_M84 said:
Here's an interesting Michael Jordan quote from 6-8 monthd ago. Talking about playing now v. Kobe

"Based on these rules, if I had to play with my style of play, I'm pretty sure I would have fouled out or I would have been at the free throw line pretty often and I could have scored 100 points."

Oh, but he wasn't done. When asked where Kobe ranks on the all time list, the man most put at the top, told the USA Today:

"It's so hard to say... If you are talking about guards, I would say he has got to be in the top 10."
----

He's right. In Jordan's era play was ALOT dirtier. You could handcheck, you could be more physical. Now ref's call games a lot softer. Someone like Jordan would literally take 20 free throws a game like it was nothing.

NBA in 99-04 still recognized as the most tough defensive era though.

And player like Durant or Wade get FTA in Jordan range.. sure the call is frigging soft now, but the amount in substance isn't too much different.

Senatore_M84 · Jun 21, 2011

fertygo said:
NBA in 99-04 still recognized as the most tough defensive era though.

And player like Durant or Wade get FTA in Jordan range.. sure the call is frigging soft now, but the amount in substance isn't too much different.

no. It's not

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/index.html

"The first year, they took my hand check away," Rivers recalled. "The next year, they took our forearm away. And then, I retired. I was done. I was like, 'I've got to move my feet? I quit. This is no fun anymore.'"

For 13 seasons, Rivers made a very good living in the NBA as one of the league's best on-ball defenders. Tall (6-foot-4) and strong, able to use his hands to steer opponents away from the basket, able to clip guards moving without the ball from their desired routes around the court. But the style that helped his Hawks teams get to the Playoffs and that put his 1994 New York Knicks team in the Finals is now a relic, consigned to the basement in Pat Riley's head.

Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997.

go watch way pistons, lakers, celtics and early bulls played. The D was REALLY aggressive and dirty by todays standards. You basically can't touch a perimeter defender now by their standards

fertygo · Jun 21, 2011

Senatore_M84 said:
no. It's not

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/index.html

go watch way pistons, lakers, celtics and early bulls played. The D was REALLY aggressive and dirty by todays standards. You basically can't touch a perimeter defender now by their standards

Its dirtier yeah, but still 99-04 era have toughest defense just check the defensive ratings in those years.

And even player like Duncan/KG shoot below/around 50%, only 4-5 team that averages 100 ppg, that era is when people said NBA is "boring"

Jasper · Jun 21, 2011

Senatore_M84 said:
I want to talk about 88-89 season. Doug Collins decided since MJ was by far his best player (at this point Scottie was in his 2nd year and hadn't developeD), he wanted to use MJ as a point guard. Jordan had never played PG in his life.

Result? He averaged 32.5 points, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 2.9 steals. Shot 53.8% from the field and for those of who who understand efficency, he had a TS% of .614 (ridiculous for a player who takes that volume)

MJ could do EVERYTHING.

He was a career .497 fg%, and that's tarnished by 4 extra years when he was 38-42 coming out of his second retirement. He had 6 years in his prime well over 50% which is ridiculous for a guard or wing player

If you really wanna know, Kobe is a career .454 fg% and his career high was .469 a number jordan bested 10 of his seasons.

Why this? Is someone saying Kobe was better than MJ?

Madridista · Jun 21, 2011

I don't think Jordan had a better shot selection than Kobe, he was just a bit more accurate. He was slightly better, but they have the same skillset.

The rules argument is overused and the difference between the impact of rules is marginal. Yes before the game was more physical, but my impression is that defence became a lot more tactical in the past years which compensated for the rules change.

drucurl · Jun 21, 2011

Madridista said:
I don't think Jordan had a better shot selection than Kobe, he was just a bit more accurate. He was slightly better, but they have the same skillset.

The rules argument is overused and the difference between the impact of rules is marginal. Yes before the game was more physical, but my impression is that defence became a lot more tactical in the past years which compensated for the rules change.

You didn't just say that did you? :eek:

I mean I agree that they have the same skillset no doubt about THAT one but Kobe takes shots you KNOW he's going to miss

Shiby · Jun 21, 2011

Nah they don´t have the same skillset.
Kobe is poor man´s Jordan. There are similarities but it´s like dru said

when you're drunk/high enough, he actually DOES remind you of His Airness

MJ was more athletic, a better shooter and smarter player.

People underrate athletic skills of Jordan. He was a monster.
And there is not one aspect of the game that Kobe is on par with his airness.

Madridista · Jun 21, 2011

Shiby said:
Kobe is poor man´s Jordan.

No objections to that. Still doesn't change the fact that he's better than everybody else.

Meh. I still believe Penny would have been the GOAT if he didn't bust his knee.

drucurl · Jun 21, 2011

Madridista said:
No objections to that. Still doesn't change the fact that he's better than everybody else.

Meh. I still believe Penny would have been the GOAT if he didn't bust his knee.

Penny, Grant and Jason Kidd came into the NBA together. Both Hardaway and Hill got their careers fucked up by injury leaving the VASTLY inferior swagged Kidd to become the "superstar" :fp:

. Penny + Shaq = Greatest thing evarr :cool:

Shiby · Jun 21, 2011

Hill had so much potential. I love the guy. But he was the worst NBA trade ever from the Orlando point of view. Detroit did well as they got Ben Wallace.

Penny despite his injuries is at least considered a great player and a superstar when Hill is more or less remembered by his bad luck (not counting College and Detroit sagas)
But yeah... both fell really, really short of their potentials as they should be world beaters. I feel the same somehow about TMac.

But I don´t agree with Kidd being inferior. To me he is top 3 PG that ever played the game if not the best ever.

Senatore_M84 · Jun 21, 2011

Don't know that hill fell short. Injuries ruined him but pre injury he was better than penny. Penny was always trending more towards being magic than mj. More of a passer

Then again give me young shaq ill get you 10 assists a game too

Kidd= point guard. One day cp3 will pass him but for now. Kidd is what a point guard should be. He's made so many mediocre players look great.... guys like kerry kittles, richard jefferson, kenyon martin, etc. Fuck... jason terry too. He's not amazing but he benefits so much off dirks shooting and kidds passing

Senatore_M84 · Jun 21, 2011

Grant hill led some crappy detroit teams to playoffs averaging 22 to 25 points 6-7 assists 7 to 10 rebounds and some lockdown d for a 5 year period. Literally putdateamonyoback. Penny more or less rode shaqs jock like kobe.

That said obviously I prefer penny to grant hill. Duke is lame. Duke players are lame. Dunleavey, laettner, battier, etc. Long line of minimal to no swag and carlton sweater vests.

If you want swag it originates in the bay. Gary payton, jason kidd, bill russell etc. Fuck steve nash learnt his when he came out here for college too

Shiby · Jun 21, 2011

Senatore_M84 said:
Don't know that hill fell short. Injuries ruined him but pre injury he was better than penny. Penny was always trending more towards being magic than mj. More of a passer

In points scored after 6 years Hill is only surpassed by three players. He was 27 when he got injured actually the best years of his carer so I would say that he did fell short. No one knows what he would achieve with a rising star in TMac by his side. I do not know if it would work but if nothing else it would be an interesting duo.

Senatore what is the overall strength of this years draft? I imagine it is rated somewhere the same as last year but lower then 2008,2009 but I didn´t really follow this year.
Is there a chance of another really strong draft (like Lebron, Wade,Anthony) in the coming years?

Sasha · Jun 21, 2011

Senatore_M84 said:
Grant hill led some crappy detroit teams to playoffs averaging 22 to 25 points 6-7 assists 7 to 10 rebounds and some lockdown d for a 5 year period. Literally putdateamonyoback. Penny more or less rode shaqs jock like kobe.

That said obviously I prefer penny to grant hill. Duke is lame. Duke players are lame. Dunleavey, laettner, battier, etc. Long line of minimal to no swag and carlton sweater vests.

If you want swag it originates in the bay. Gary payton, jason kidd, bill russell etc. Fuck steve nash learnt his when he came out here for college too

You keep repeating this like Kobe was a non factor in those 3 'chips. Sure EVERYONE will admit that Shaq was the main reason we won, but we wouldn't have won them w/o Kobe.

Shaq won 1 w/o Kobe but he had help from Wade.

Kobe won 2 (so far) w/o Shaq but he had Pau.

Shooting Guards:

Jordan>>>>Kobe>>West>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Everyone else

Senatore_M84 · Jun 21, 2011

Shiby said:
In points scored after 6 years Hill is only surpassed by three players. He was 27 when he got injured actually the best years of his carer so I would say that he did fell short. No one knows what he would achieve with a rising star in TMac by his side. I do not know if it would work but if nothing else it would be an interesting duo.

Senatore what is the overall strength of this years draft? I imagine it is rated somewhere the same as last year but lower then 2008,2009 but I didn´t really follow this year.
Is there a chance of another really strong draft (like Lebron, Wade,Anthony) in the coming years?

Its a crappy draft in sense I doubt there are any allstar talents. Certainly no rose or durant or blake griffins. I doubt any westbrook, klove talents either

I mean jonas vaskeuitreorfhdjkwhatever will be 4th pick and IMO might be most intriguing player. You'd know him better.

Kyrie and derrick williams are top americans. Both will be good. Kyries a natural pg. Some think he could be paul or deron but that's awfully lofty for a guy who played just 7 games (albiet because of an injury). Williams is kind of a tweener. I like him but he's somewhere in realm of jamison, beasley, josh smith. You know oslid player but not lebron/durant or bosh/amare etc.

Kanter the turkish center is also intriguing but he also sat a year out so I am not sure.

Rest of top 15 I mean there r good players just not stars.... vesely, jimmer, kemba, burks, klay thompson, marcus morris etc.

Actually I like klay thompson as a sleeper. 6ft7 shooting guard. Can shoot lights out. Comes of screens well, very intelligent. Not super athletic. Jerry west likes him. Some scouts have said he's got a bit of reggie miller to him BUT at same time could just as easily be another mike miller, marco belinelli etc

All and all don't expect any real difference makers. 2012 on otherhand will be stacked like 200e or 2007

Edit: klay is mychael thompson's son. Former laker

drucurl · Jun 21, 2011

Sasha said:
You keep repeating this like Kobe was a non factor in those 3 'chips. Sure EVERYONE will admit that Shaq was the main reason we won, but we wouldn't have won them w/o Kobe.

Shaq won 1 w/o Kobe but he had help from Wade.

Kobe won 2 (so far) w/o Shaq but he had Pau.

Shooting Guards:

Jordan>>>>Kobe>>West>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Everyone else

MJ = point guard

Shiby · Jun 21, 2011

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