Tadej
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I am talking about yesterday match.
UEFA Champions League 2014 -2015
- Thread starter Milanista
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I am talking about yesterday match.
Dejan Savicevic
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oh I am sorry, although I dont think yesterday was on of the best but it was definitely better than 2003 and 2007.
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Jasper
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Yeah if everything went for juve and almost nothing went for barca, huve would have won.Barca had so many chances. I doubt they could be as westeful if they play juve another 10 times
Jasper
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Qaas
Vi må tage det som det kommer
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It was a good entertaining match, especially after juve stepped second half. Allegri's teams can only perform in one half in a 90 min match.
The amount of clear chances barca created were scary, and that neymar header haha wtf.
G.Costanza
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What i Just realized is that Barca has been to 4 finals in the past 10 years and have won all of them, That's some Bulls/Spurs shit right there. team of the century thus far.
And they beat germany, Italy and France's league champs on their way to the title. Gets impressive by the minute.
I forgot England. Shit it didn't feel like it during the season but this was the most impressive season any team has ever had.
And they beat germany, Italy and France's league champs on their way to the title. Gets impressive by the minute.
I forgot England. Shit it didn't feel like it during the season but this was the most impressive season any team has ever had.
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Allan_Sombrero
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Messi's most exciting seasons were when Barcelona won the UCL in 2011 and his 91 goal season in 2012.
Messi can be contained, so can be any other Player in the history. but players like him can turn any game on there own with little magic. The world cup evidence is bullshit. that team was poor functionally when it came to attacking play, and when Di Maria went, it became worse. anyways I am getting bit annoyed how many people downplay Messi's World Cup performances? Obviously he wasn't anywhere near his physical peak, but too many people make it sound like he had an average world cup and it was kinda prove that he can't do it without his Barca teammates or nonsense like that. He scored half of Argentina's goals while playing as a number 10, created a ton of chances which his high profile teammates wasted regularly with ridiculous finishing (Di Maria was probably the biggest disappointment of the tournament after his excellent performances for Real before he got injured, Aguero was half-fit and completely useless when he played, as was Higuain with the exception of the goal against Belgium). I've now read several times that Mascherano was Argentina's best player, which makes no sense. He had his standout performance in the ultra defensive semifinal against the Netherlands and was very good in the final, no doubt, but overall? Certainly not. It's like saying Schweinsteiger was Germany's best player, he wasn't, doesn't matter how big a legend he's now for that final performance.
That Argentina side wasn't anything special overall, if you look at the performances of the players and not at the names on the pitch. But I even read a few times that's Messi's fault as well, because he's supposed to make his teammates perform at their best level. I'd understand it if he occupied the space where others prefered to play in, but he actually was really selfless, played very deep most of the time and served the strikers and wingers chances on a silver platter, but they simply wasted them. How's that his fault? It was a solid side, with a core of Garay who played really well in defense, Mascherano having a great tournament in defensive midfield and Messi being left alone in basically everything that happened in the opponent's half.
I get it, many hoped for a Maradona-esque World Cup (and I'm fecking glad it didn't happen, Messi winning WOrld Cup in Brazil, I would rather die). But it's also obvious that we saw an all time great player nowhere near fully fit playing on an incredibly high level, that few others could reach, even if they're fit. Shouldn't he deserve praise for that?
Should he have won the Golden Ball? Maybe not. While his influence in key moments was really really good, his fitness issues, whatever the reasons were, meant he wasn't the consistent threat throughout games, he can be. But the outcry about it is much more ridiculous than the fact that he actually won it. Sure, you could make a case for James or Robben or give it to Neuer or M?ller for winning, but the latter rarely happened (Schillaci, Ronaldo, Kahn, Zidane, Forlan didn't win the World Cup either, when they won the Golden Ball, only 3 out of the 9 times since its existence it went to a winner) and the former two weren't really any better than Messi up until the quarterfinals. James then went out without doing a lot and Robben was just as invisible as Messi in the semifinal they played against each other. Robben scored his 3 goals in the first 2 games of the group stages and while he appeared to be a constant threat in the knockout stages on the counter, there wasn't that much end product to it (with the exception of the dive of course).
Now don't get me wrong, all of those guys played an exceptional tournament and statistics shouldn't be too important in judging players. It's just mind-boggling how much criticism Messi gets for still being as good as all the others and being highly influential into a team reaching the final and narrowly losing it in extra-time. Never before has a high profile player with an obviously very good tournament faced that much criticism. It's just sad.
Last year's Argentina was very solid defensively to the point where Messi didn't have to worry about about attacking too much and losing the ball since Argentina wouldn't have conceded a goal. He should have taken the initiative to finish several plays himself. He tried to implement a passing game but it didn't work. When something doesn't work you change it up and find other ways to get the team to play better. Mascherano is hailed as one of the best players because he was the unofficial captain of the team and he was the one who was organizing the defense. He is the reason why Argentina held on against the tough teams despite not having a strong midfield.
I agree the Argentinian forwards flopped greatly and missed some incredible chances in the final where Argentina should have comfortably won in normal time. Messi did help Argentina reach the final since the entire Argentina attack was based on him. However, he still had a very mediocre world cup. As for the best players I think Robben or Schweinsteiger deserved it. Robben showed class in every game he played and practically carried the Dutch team when the rest of his teammates went to sleep, especially van Persie. Schweinsteiger because of how influential he was for that German team. He was the one making numerous interceptions every game, starting plays with his distribution, chasing down players, dispossessing them, and kept possession of the ball well. He kept that German team ticking.
Messi is a better player than Suarez but Suarez has been irreplaceable just like Messi has. Either way Messi will end up winning the Balon d'Or because of his stats. However, Barcelona's MVP this year is Suarez since he was crucial to making that Barcelona attack work with his movement and assists. Take out Suarez and I doubt Neymar would have done what Suarez did, which is pull defenders and open up space for Messi to exploit.
Messi doesn't need a CF to be great but he does need a forward to assist him and Barcelona win a UCL title. Eto'o and Villa are evidence of that.
Maldini won 3 UCL titles and reached a world cup final by the age of 26 and yet he never got lazy or complacent in his late career. He should have reached another world cup final in 2002 and ended up winning 2 more UCL titles. Despite his age, Maldini always performed well. I think Maldini earned the same right Messi did in being lazy for Milan but Maldini never did get lazy. That's the thing that differentiates them: mentality and strive.
Napoli were basically the Atletico Madrid of 13-14 who had a few world class players and mostly good players that played in a good system. The only world class players that Napoli really had was Maradona, Alemao, Careca, and Ferrara, despite being so young. De Napoli and Bagni were very good but not world class.
The 1986 Argentina team was a decent side but far from a "very good" side if you take out Maradona. The one big positive about that Argentinian team was how good it was defensively thanks to the great Ruggeri and mentally strong players like Olarticoechea and Brown, who made up for their lack of talent with grit in defense. Burruchaga and Valdano were also above average players but besides that; it was a pretty average team. The team had more hard-workers than creative, skilled players and Maradona was the conductor and creative spark of that team. Without him, Argentina definitely wouldn't have reached the final or have been able to beat the Germans.
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In closing this should have been the squad Sabella brought to the world cup last year but didn't due to his issues with certain players and his favoritism. It honestly would have beaten Germany due to the solid defense and very good midfield.
Argentina now have Tata Martino as coach and I wouldn't be surprised if he leads Argentina to another world cup final in 2018. The midfield which has always been Argentina's weakness is now very good and you have great young midfielders emerging from Argentina: Matias Kranevitter, Lucas Romero, and Jose Mauri. Then you have Emanuel Mammana and Tiago Casasola for CB. Lastly for attack you have Dybala, Icardi, and Vietto. Messi has no excuse now if he doesn't carry a very talented team to the world cup final. The Argentina team in 2018 will be a perfect mix of youth and experienced players.
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lolllllllllllllllllllllllllll
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Fucking Uefalona
Goodfella
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Prime Barzagli is/was more balanced, more complete, more reliable(Europe/internationally at least).
Chiellini has been a liability in Europe, where he chokes/slips, makes headless decisions in the penalty box and doesn't get away with fouls. But in Serie A he's calmer and very rarely gets punished for fouls.
They're not as Chiellini dependent as they used to be under Conte, but his absence can still be felt. He does more defensively than the other two.
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Those who are saying Pogba was bad/underperformed, is this the first time you watch him, besides highlights? He did well, his best performance in the knockouts. Take out the occasional wonder goals and this is how his best performances look like.
60m+ bids for him should be a no brainer though for Juve.
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Chiellini is very much a John Terry. Blood and guts and bandaged head, no real technical elegance.
Yup. Was watching in a crowded place whilst fucking around but I felt almost every Juve attack went through Pogba before breaking down inevitably inside the box (a real box presence, say Mandzukic, is IMO necessary for Juve right now). Him and Evra have a very good connection down the left.
Juve midfield could (and IMO did at times) outplay the outnumbered Barca midfield, especially when Suarez didn't follow Pirlo, but they just didn't have enough up front.
Juve midfield could (and IMO did at times) outplay the outnumbered Barca midfield, especially when Suarez didn't follow Pirlo, but they just didn't have enough up front.
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Allan_Sombrero
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Juventus did outplay Barcelona in the second half up until the Suarez goal where everything fell apart afterwards for Juventus. They were forced to attack and then left too much space for Barcelona to exploit.
Dejan Savicevic
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I dunno, but this season Messi did many exciting things IMO, plus him being more mature is also a big plus for me. but than arguing about what gets you excited is stupid IMO, i mean I might find Adriana hotter, while you want to get inside Pampita. I think we should not argue on this.
well any defense will be in great danger of conceding if they lose the ball in danger areas, lets not forget it. And you cannot say Messi should have taken ball everytime he wanted, because that is not always possible. And lets be clear, it is not like Messi did not tried, he did as evident with him making most chances of all players. He was the team's main creator who did what he was meant to do.
easier said than done. You cannot perform as a lone attacking force, if your teammates are not performing to their standard. no one has, no one will.
and dont think that Messi did not tried the efforts himself. After all he was the most numbers of dribbles, and also was high on shots taken.
He did tried to take things in his hand, which worked against the likes of Iran, Bosnia and Switzerland. While did not against Germany. He tored apart Germany at times but the glory was not for him, simple.
I mean just watch the final again, and analyse. Messi was not at all poor or shite, he performed well on his own, just that he did received help from his teammates.
I have no problem with him being hailed as one of the best. I have problem when people say he was the real MVP of Argentina. He shone in ultradefensive setups in the latter stage, it was not like he carried the midfield alone, while Messi was left alone.
agree.
he was good, not mediocre. His only problem was he does not get angry when his teammates ignore him and pass to others.
I disagree if you are trying to make it like Robben carried the team??
the only decisive contribution of him in the KOs was that dive vs Mexico. Sneijder despite being marked heavily score the all important equaliser, Sneijder was the best performer against Costa Rica. In the semis, I dont blame any of the attackers as both team played shit defensive game, still Messi created 3 goalscoring opportunities : one where Aguero passed instead of shooting, one where Palacio headed the ball and the one where Maxi got a lousy volley. He might be bad by his standards but he still created 3 goalscoring opportunities..
He was a good team player, but not the most outstanding individual. I did not found any German outstanding, even Muller despite his stats. Neuer and Kroos were the most remarkables of them IMO.
(i) the same can be said for Suarez?? Him playing with Messi means, the opposition will put 2-3players paying attention to Messi.
(ii) Messi will not win Ballon DOr because of his stats, he will win because he has dominated all aspects of attacking game at the highest level. The guy was the best scorer(without penalties), best assister, best dribbler, best creator.
just look at his stats before the final:
it is not about just goals and assists, it is about whole package as an attacker
even has better defensive stats than Suarez. I mean the guy was the best dribbler, playmaker and scorer of his team, they guy is so less, but somehow his sidekick is better and more influential. It is like some people who say Garrincha was better than Pele, which makes me laugh always.
winning CL is not because of CF alone, there are many things. Eto and Villa were there with Messi many seasons, Barsa did not won all CLs.
Messi is not complacent all the times, you are making it like he is not giving efforts or has not performed. He does not need to make mad man runs all the time, he has performed great in almost every game this season bar few. Even those where he was far from the best, he still created chances that rarely few did.
And I did found Maldini complacent in the 2002 world cup, he was beaten in air by a midget ffs. Also Maldini has struggled many times, it was not like he was flawless all his life, I have seen many games where Maldini was did not performed to his best, just like Messi.
so are you telling me Atletico Madrid also were an average side??? I guess they were not. neither were the Napoli sides which had won scudetto. Yes the sides that Maradona played in the early seasons were average, but later they did strengthen the teams. And you are saying their were 4 players who were world class and two very good ones, but still they are average.
lets not overrate Maradona here by saying he played in average teams. They were also strong teams who played to his strength.
This Maradona played with shit players and still won, hence he is better than anyone, is bullshit arguement IMO.
what should guys like Pele, Cruyff, Di Stefano,Platini have done or messi should do?? Moved to inferior clubs to "prove" themselves, that they could win with inferior teammates?
And who can tell what Maradona would have done with legendary teammates? He could not win anything other than a Copa Del Rey with Barcelona and according to Maradona himself in his autobiography, Bar?a "the best team in the world" and a team that "had the best players in Spain". Maradona actually said that he could play that style of football, because he could not keep up with all the running. Maybe Maradona needed a team playing for and around him. Maybe he could not play that great with players closer to his level? Who knows?
you are getting me wrong. ofcourse The 86 side is all about Diego really and the way the rest worked around him and for him, but that is the thing, that team played for Maradona, with every player performing to his best, the attackers(Burruchaga and Valdano) scored 6goals, while only Higuian scored for Argentina. Same cannot be said about Messi in 2014. They performed really well in 1986. And Maradona was never a conductor for Argentina, he was ofcourse the creator, the guy on whom the attacking play depended but he was no way the conductor.
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crazy4milan
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I hate these comparissons.
Luis Enrique's Barca is pretty much the set up of great individuals, that ended up becoming a team, the tactics aint nothing interesting, or ground breaking. Of course since its pace is faster, movements are more direct, people prefer it, its easier on the eye. The credit here goes in fact that Suarez (who everyone who has seen him knows he's willing to not be the center of it all, well, except some people at RnB who thought it was impossible for him to ever be so), and specially Neymar (I say specially cause at such young age, he could have easily gotten to a team where he was the main star, but he took a mature road to becoming a star, one that will pay off big time) left egos outside and decided to just blend with Messi, let the spotlight to him and just have fun. Both are what Zlatan was unable to do in 2010.
Pep's Barca was a machine. Something unique we wont ever see again. It formed as a team, it was never the individuals. Team concept was always it. The chemistry between everyone in that team was ridiculous, the accuracy of every move, they could play with their eyes shut and knew where the other was. It was boring to watch, but tactically it was carefully designed little by little. It was the work of a maniac and it even translated to the international level. That's how scary that shit was.
Massaro94
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"Juventus? In my career I won 5 Champions Leagues whereas they lost 5 Champions League finals, one of them against Milan."
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Allan_Sombrero
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Agree.
Argentina sat too deep for them to risk getting a counter-attack if Messi lost the ball.
Before the final, he really didn't try to run at defenses as much as we're used to seeing him. All the knockout games were mediocre by his standards. Sure he had his good moments here and there but he wasn't consistent enough throughout the game. The Holland game he was very bad. There were times that I didn't even know he was on the pitch; that's how bad he was.
He did perform well against Germany. A lot better than he did against Holland. That German defense was tight and honestly Argentina needed Di Maria making runs to break it down. No other player in the Argentina team could replace what Di Maria brought to the pitch. Regardless Messi didn't do well against the other teams in the knockout stages. If I recall he even missed a goal against Belgium when he was by himself against Courtois.
Messi lacks leadership, which is something Mascherano offered Argentina. Both were key to making Argentina reach the final but people tend to praise Mascherano more since he was the one who organized the midfield and defense, which made Argentina a defensively strong side.
Robben was crucial for Holland. He was the one running and pulling defenders to open up space for his teammates. He was the only one from Holland who took the initiative to do something and it showed. He had 38 solo runs into the opposing penalty area, which is more than any other player in last year's world cup.
It's been said by several analysts that without Schweinsteiger, it's uncertain whether or not Germany would have made it to the final. Khedira and Kroos cannot do the job Schweinsteiger did for the midfield: keep the play going with his distribution and protect the defense. Khedira is good at breaking up play but not distribution whereas Kroos is good at passing but he can't defend (hence why he gets exposed when forced to play anchor).
So in the end it does come down to stats Dejan. You said he dominated all aspects of the game (as did Suarez) but ultimately it will come down to stats as it always does. That's why Ronaldo has won the Balon d'Or for the previous years. In 2010 Sneijder dominated all aspects of the game, won a treble with Inter, and was key in Holland reaching the world cup final; yet Messi won the Balon d'Or because of individual stats. Messi didn't deserve the Balon d'Or that year just like Ronaldo didn't deserve the Balon d'Or over Ribery for 2013.
Of course Maldini was going to struggle because of age in his late career. Same thing happened to Nesta later on; though Maldini was not at the level Nesta was at CB. There's a big difference when you don't perform at your best in comparison to someone who walks around the pitch with no urgency as Messi has done a lot in recent years. He looks uninterested in many games and in the world cup as well.
Messi is no doubt a great player but he and Barcelona need a good CF to open up space and allow him to play to his level without being surrounded by 2-3 players every game. You need a great CF and defense to win the UCL regardless and that will always be the case for that competition. Too many games a season to rely on one forward only.
Atletico Madrid last year had a good system and a couple good players. Can you tell me besides Koke that the rest of their midfielders are world class? Besides Godin and Felipe Luis in the back, their defense isn't world class either. Their forward line, however, had two great strikers in Diego Costa and Villa. The thing that made them so great is the system that Simeone plays and because he put midfielders together who complement each other well.
You can have a team with a couple world class players and a couple good players but still have an average team. Look at PSG for example who have a bunch of great players but their team play is horrible. Same can be said of Manchester United. Napoli was an average team because if it was as great as you said Dejan they would have been able to do a lot more in the Champions League and the UEFA cup. They didn't perform well in the UEFA cup till they won it in the 1988?89 season.
There is a reason why Maradona left Barcelona and it was not due to footballing reasons; it was because he started his cocaine addiction in Spain. He scored 38 goals in 58 official matches for Barcelona so it's not because he flopped but because Barcelona didn't want to deal with his addiction.
No one said those guys should move to lesser teams to prove themselves. People just tend to give more credit to those who played in weaker teams and achieved a lot. At the age of 16, Maradona was starting for Argentinos Juniors and by the age of 18 he was carrying Argentinos Juniors and almost led them to an Argentina league title where they finished in second place. What was more incredible is that he kept Argentinos competing the whole season against giants like River and Boca. For a low-budget team like Argentinos it was an unexpected and truly amazing performance since they were more used to struggling against relegation every year than competing for a title.
He was undoubtedly the orchestrator of Argentina because he was the one playing those neat passes to keep the play going or playing a through ball to send his teammate on to goal.