Italian Football Thread III

Sage

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There are journos and there are journos. There are those who work behind their desk putting out article after article along predictable fan-oriented briefs, and then there are those who travel with teams, sit in the curva and have deeper insights into what's going on in a club. If you follow the opinions of the latter guys, you often find good stuff.

I agree about rating players of course. Tonali is one of those who's obviously talented, but it would be too soon to say anything about him till we see how he functions in a serie a team. SMS is again a player who has done immensely well in Serie A for two seasons. To me, it's obvious he's incredibly tired after a demanding season that went on till week 38 in terms of tangible goals Lazio could accomplish, and then a world cup. It's exactly like how dog-tired Modric looks these days (and during the world cup). If you've seen him for two seasons and still deny his quality, that's just short-sightedness.

Gattuso's tactics are more than adequate to compete in top level football. But clearly we don't agree on that.

modric is 33 who played a full UCL AND WC campaign and sms is 23 who went back home after the group stages where he shat the bed, bad comparison.

I didn't want him for anything close to the outrageous price they commanded, but if milan bought him for let's say 40, it would be still be risky but I'm fine with it. I don't care how bad this market is, you can't spend 100 million on a guy who's won jack shit, plain and simple.

I was talking about tactics and player opinions from journos, the "inside scoop" or wtv concerning locker room/club drama is the only shit worth reading :lol:

I'd like to see gattuso's tactics work in a top level match before I agree to that, because so far it's 3 games vs juve, 3 losses and 9 goals conceded to 1, blew his lead vs a shaky napoli, beat an inconsistent roma and lost to inter.

and don't get me started on the arsenal ties.
 

necromancer

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SMS is 35 at heart.
 

BillyTheKid

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And most importantly, whenever you evaluate a manager, the most important part is not tactical.. not by a huge mile these days. Any manager can get good tacticians in his staff. Football is analyzed and planned to such detail these days, and Italy particularly continues to be obsessed about tactics, that I'm sure there are excellent tactical coaches in the staff of even an Empoli.. as Andreazzoli's football proved last season.

The only thing that really matters for a high level manager these days is man management. And that's not just management of the players, but also the club and the media.

This factor is what convinces me that Gattuso will become an excellent manager over the years. He's very very likeable, by all parties involved - players, media, club. Every few weeks you get a Milan player talking incredibly highly of Gattuso. Sure, some of this might be club-planted PR, but there are private conversations that have been spoken about so many times in the past weeks where Suso, Bonucci, Higuain have all basically said how good Gattuso is in getting the best out of his players. He's brutally honest in press conferences and doesn't mind admitting his faults and how far he has to go to become a great coach. He is pretty much the second coming of Ancelotti in terms of personality, who probably remains the most personable man in Italian football. Ancelotti's tactics have never been particularly innovative, but he knows how to handle calcio.

And Spalletti is almost the opposite. There are always grumbles around Spalletti. The media openly dislikes him thanks to his treatment of them and will not lose any opportunity to turn on him. His squad, I'm sure bluenine would agree, does not have 100% happy guys through and through. And even serious fans, like bluenine just demonstrated, see him as a stop-gap option to keep them in a good spot for a couple of years.

I have no doubts that what makes a great manager at the highest level these days is man management or better put, stakeholder management (stakeholders being players, media, fans and the club). Tactics can only get you so far. De Zerbi, Gasperini, Giampaolo and Andreazzoli have better tactical minds than Allegri, Ancelotti, Spalletti and Gattuso. What's the point? Nothing.

Great post. Many of us do not recognize these subtleties.
 

Az.

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And most importantly, whenever you evaluate a manager, the most important part is not tactical.. not by a huge mile these days. Any manager can get good tacticians in his staff. Football is analyzed and planned to such detail these days, and Italy particularly continues to be obsessed about tactics, that I'm sure there are excellent tactical coaches in the staff of even an Empoli.. as Andreazzoli's football proved last season.

The only thing that really matters for a high level manager these days is man management. And that's not just management of the players, but also the club and the media.

This factor is what convinces me that Gattuso will become an excellent manager over the years. He's very very likeable, by all parties involved - players, media, club. Every few weeks you get a Milan player talking incredibly highly of Gattuso. Sure, some of this might be club-planted PR, but there are private conversations that have been spoken about so many times in the past weeks where Suso, Bonucci, Higuain have all basically said how good Gattuso is in getting the best out of his players. He's brutally honest in press conferences and doesn't mind admitting his faults and how far he has to go to become a great coach. He is pretty much the second coming of Ancelotti in terms of personality, who probably remains the most personable man in Italian football. Ancelotti's tactics have never been particularly innovative, but he knows how to handle calcio.

And Spalletti is almost the opposite. There are always grumbles around Spalletti. The media openly dislikes him thanks to his treatment of them and will not lose any opportunity to turn on him. His squad, I'm sure bluenine would agree, does not have 100% happy guys through and through. And even serious fans, like bluenine just demonstrated, see him as a stop-gap option to keep them in a good spot for a couple of years.

I have no doubts that what makes a great manager at the highest level these days is man management or better put, stakeholder management (stakeholders being players, media, fans and the club). Tactics can only get you so far. De Zerbi, Gasperini, Giampaolo and Andreazzoli have better tactical minds than Allegri, Ancelotti, Spalletti and Gattuso. What's the point? Nothing.

What a load of utter shite.

Good tacticians are what win you games, not just good man management or good media handling. That's nice to have, but its not what gets you trophies, it never has and it never will.

The most successful managers have always been great tacticians. Ancelloti lovable as he is, and he is my favourite coach is not a great tactician and his lack of consistency in league titles at all the clubs he has managed is proof of that.

Gattuso with his great media handling at all the clubs he has managed so far got him in total a bellow 50% win rate. Thats shite, and its not what you want from a manager at a world class club.
 

vB9

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Report journalist Federico Ruffo, who suffered an attempted arson attack, laments “the hatred that comes out when it comes to football” as “I’m a Juventus fan”.

The Rai 3 programme investigated links between the ‘Ndrangheta, the Calabrian mafia, and Juventus ultras groups.

There was also the death of Juventus fan Raffaello Bucci, who had been working for the club, but also collaborating with police.

It was ruled to be a suicide, but wiretaps suggest he could've been threatened before jumping off a bridge.

This week someone attempted to burn down Ruffo’s house, but a dog barking raised the alarm and the arsonists ran off.

“In many years between Report and Presadiretta I have dealt with many topics, but something like that had never happened to me,” Ruffo told Il Fatto Quotidiano.

“The problem isn’t so much that you can’t touch the ultras, but the hatred that comes out when it comes to football, being a fan makes anything legitimate.

“On social media people have written to me to say they hope the ‘Ndrangheta complete the job, that they’re sorry it didn’t succeed.

“Others tell me not to speculate about the attempted fire, because the mafia wouldn’t bother with ‘a piece of **** like me’.

“Luckily I feel protected by the police and my company, but more than physical violence what scares me is people’s hatred.

“That won’t go away and I have no means of defending myself, every time I write something, which will have my name on, I’ll have to deal with these absurd attacks, mostly from Juventus fans.

“The pitch has nothing to do with me, as aside from anything else I’ve always been a Juventus fan.

“It’s absurd for fans to blame me for facts which concern the ultras, the underworld and directors. But on the other hand they’ve been whipped up by blogs and social media which have been discrediting the investigation.

“I certainly don’t want to second guess those who are investigating, but I think it may have been some fanatic and not an organised group.

“Five years ago I did an inquest into football but there was no violent reaction, maybe because it involved teams less important than Juventus.

“Ever since we announced the programme would air, Sigfrido Ranucci and I have received threats, especially on social media.

“At first I tried replying to try and make people think, but I soon realised it was utterly useless, they were people with no interest in trying to understand.

“The house is now guarded and my parents, who live downstairs, will leave for a while.

“Will I leave? I’ve lived here for 40 years, and that would mean letting them win.”.

Football in Italy is hard
 

Congo Powers

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And what of the young milan fan who was put in the hospital?

Cry more Juventus journalist lmao
 

bluenine

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Good to see a proper discussion here. I somewhat agree with Necro that successful managers don't have to be the best tactically. IMO the key attributes of a successful manager broadly include:

1. tactical (planning, flexibility, etc)
2. man management
3. winning attitude / mentality
4. resource management, for e.g. knowing what kind of players he needs
5. developing talents
6. ability to manage their boss i.e. get what he wants from the club in terms of transfers, etc

A successful manager is usually brilliant in at least one of the above key attributes, and decent in the others. Some of the greatest managers are actually quite limited tactically i.e. they basically have one tactical set up but are very, very good at execution of that tactic.

Look at Mourinho for example, he is quite limited tactically and his stay in Italy exposed that to some extent. But he has won so much because he excels in some of the other attributes (3, 4 & 6 above specifically, he used to be very good at 2 as well). Sarri for e.g. is brilliant at attribute no 5, and pretty good at 1 & 2 as well. Even Mancini who is a troll tactically, he is brilliant at 3 & 4 which is why he has won so much.

Coming back to Spalletti, one thing that does collaborate Necro's POV is that I don't see him as brilliant in any aspect. That is probably why he hasn't won anything significant, and why I don't expect him to at Inter. But when Inter hired Spalletti, winning was not the immediate goal - we were too far behind for that. Stability of performance and revenues i.e. consistent top 4 finishes is what Inter need. And Spalletti, who is pretty decent in most of the above attributes, is a sensible choice to achieve that.

Gattuso was not a sensible choice for Milan, more of a desperate roll of dice. Because Milan were in the same boat as Inter, and needed a coach who can guarantee top 4 finishes. Gattuso was too much of an unknown to be any kind of a guarantee. But lets give credit where its due, he seems to be working well and has an interesting approach to attributes 2 & 3. Its too early to say whether he will become a great coach, but if he does I suspect it will be on the back of brilliance in man management and attitude.
 

KujaIX

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I think to say Mourinho is 'quite limited tactically' is a bit ridiculous.
 

Il grande Milan

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And most importantly, whenever you evaluate a manager, the most important part is not tactical.. not by a huge mile these days. Any manager can get good tacticians in his staff. Football is analyzed and planned to such detail these days, and Italy particularly continues to be obsessed about tactics, that I'm sure there are excellent tactical coaches in the staff of even an Empoli.. as Andreazzoli's football proved last season.

The only thing that really matters for a high level manager these days is man management. And that's not just management of the players, but also the club and the media.

This factor is what convinces me that Gattuso will become an excellent manager over the years. He's very very likeable, by all parties involved - players, media, club. Every few weeks you get a Milan player talking incredibly highly of Gattuso. Sure, some of this might be club-planted PR, but there are private conversations that have been spoken about so many times in the past weeks where Suso, Bonucci, Higuain have all basically said how good Gattuso is in getting the best out of his players. He's brutally honest in press conferences and doesn't mind admitting his faults and how far he has to go to become a great coach. He is pretty much the second coming of Ancelotti in terms of personality, who probably remains the most personable man in Italian football. Ancelotti's tactics have never been particularly innovative, but he knows how to handle calcio.

And Spalletti is almost the opposite. There are always grumbles around Spalletti. The media openly dislikes him thanks to his treatment of them and will not lose any opportunity to turn on him. His squad, I'm sure bluenine would agree, does not have 100% happy guys through and through. And even serious fans, like bluenine just demonstrated, see him as a stop-gap option to keep them in a good spot for a couple of years.

I have no doubts that what makes a great manager at the highest level these days is man management or better put, stakeholder management (stakeholders being players, media, fans and the club). Tactics can only get you so far. De Zerbi, Gasperini, Giampaolo and Andreazzoli have better tactical minds than Allegri, Ancelotti, Spalletti and Gattuso. What's the point? Nothing.

You are partly right, not 100%
 

Berlusconi

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and bonaventura, biglia. We probably won't win away but at home we could beat team. it's certainly possible. Inter honestly could beat jube at home with their best squad is they had a better coach. Unlike most I don't hate inter at all. They are our cousins. Real hatred is towards jube.

giphy.gif
 

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Hatred is such a useless and foolish emotion.
 

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how can you love something..if you do not hate what opposes it
 

bluenine

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I think to say Mourinho is 'quite limited tactically' is a bit ridiculous.

Well, I meant that in context of course. He may be a tactical genius compared to you or me, but compared to elite coaches (specially in Italy) he is tactically limited. He prepares for a game very hard (and well), but when he was at Inter he was constantly found out tactically by coaches of smaller or mid table teams. Luckily for Mourinho, the Inter squad was just too superior.

However like I also mentioned, Mourinho is a world class coach because he is brilliant in some other attributes.
 

vB9

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mou is a shitty coach. Real coaches in Italy laugh at him and claim mou only began to understand tactics in Italy by watching/copying mangers there. mou is good at creating a siege mentality in his teams, us against them. Wot fucking tactics? Parking a plane?
 

vB9

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Man Utd €90m Koulibaly bid rebuffed

Soon even private billionaires wont be able to sustain their ownership. Sum1 needs to step-in make a rule over transfer fees.
 
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Nadir Zortea from Atalanta will be Atalanta's next big sale. Can play both RB and RM.
 

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Letting Orsato referee a Juventus game is like letting Jimmy Savile near a child.
 

jammin

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Cristianoooooooooooooo

Calcio daddy :cool:

Where the haters at?
 

necromancer

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The more points Fiorentina, Roma and Lazio drop, the better for us.

SPAL vs Empoli was a really good match.. the bottom of the table quality in Serie A this season is so heart-warming. Most of these teams are trying to play attractive football. Even Chievo might step up now with Mimmo Di Carlo.
 

necromancer

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