Ronaldo OR Van Basten

zZ[-_-]Zz · Mar 28, 2008

Forza Milan...

Besfort · Mar 28, 2008

I've not seen MVB play neither, but all the facts, stats and everything related to football, favors Ronaldo.

drucurl · Mar 28, 2008

As Ronaldo9 correctly said....(and FFS stop knocking him for his username :head:

) It depends- to a large extent on the TYPE of fan you are....Many people get caught up in the overall package which includes intangibles such as work ethic, loyalty, determination and class. This is fine and perfectly allowable in the debate. However I'm pretty sure that Ronaldo's other qualities such as his philanthropistic nature, easygoing attitude etc would be deemed irrelevant....ah well :rolleyes:

I understand that MVB had a better work ethic and was more professional than Ronaldo. That's true. But the correlation to what you would see on the pitch is nebulous. For instance, no amount of hard work on the pitch and training and practise is going to turn Gila into MVB..... nor would it turn Gattuso into Essien. You can say that Essien is a mercenary and the like. You can criticise his determination and professionalism.....but you CAN'T say that because Gattuso is a harder worker and will surely bleed for his club that he is a better PLAYER than Essien. He isn't. He isn't as strong, fast, skilled or versatile.

It's similar to the comparison. Only that MVB additionally had certain capabilities that ronaldo had not properly honned, such as aerial attacks and the discipline to follow the manager's strategy. However as a PLAYER, in the strictest sense of the word Ronaldo is better if only slightly.

[edited]

His phenomenal pace served him well in Holland and Brazil but didn't do that much for him in Italy. His skills gave him the edge for inter.
As for the claim that he isn't among the best finishers. I'd like to remind the detractors that post-injury Ronaldo is among the best finishers in the world and essentially acquired this role in his later years. He was sp proficient as a poacher that he won the golden boot in La liga in only his second season with Madrid. He is also one of the few to cross the 30 goal mark in a season in Spain and Italy.....a feat that hasn't been accomplished since his departure....thereby meaning that the likes of Trez, Sheva, Vieri, Inzaghi etc have yet to replicate. Also he was the creator of many goals just like MVB....for anyone who actually watched Real Madrid, you'd see that he was a good crosser and passer and sent in many direct assists for the others. Ronaldo's Italian record season of 34 goals in 47 matches also stands above Marco's 32 in 46.

Senatore_M84 · Mar 28, 2008

this type of topic just makes me reminise on how good ronaldo was, and thinking maybe we should wait and bring him back and not another striker..... dammit we're playing into G&B's plans

atreides602 · Mar 28, 2008

I've seen both players playn' , they were both top class, dunno , maybe ronaldo was surounded by more hype then mvb , and ronaldo was playng in spain and mvb in italy, were defenses are much more ... let's say profesional, anyway, for me ronaldo stoped to exist the minute he moved to merda ,so mvb no 1 for me .

Madridista · Mar 28, 2008

zZ[-_-]Zz said:
gaizka my man... are you takin' seriously someone who hasn't even seen van Basten play? if you go through the thread... of the few people like us (havin' seen both players)... only Wild is inchin' towards fat boy... while all of the rest are pretty clear that van Basten is superior...

I haven't seen him live, but I've seen a lot of footage from him and I think I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about.

For me Ronaldo is a more *beautiful* player than Van Basten. The difference isn't very big, but that gives him the edge.

drucurl · Mar 28, 2008

atreides602 said:
I've seen both players playn' , they were both top class, dunno , maybe ronaldo was surounded by more hype then mvb , and ronaldo was playng in spain and mvb in italy, were defenses are much more ... let's say profesional, anyway, for me ronaldo stoped to exist the minute he moved to merda ,so mvb no 1 for me .

I hope you feel the same way about Seedorf, Pirlo, Crespo, Meazza, and our Marquee player Brocchi

atreides602 · Mar 28, 2008

mam- there were rumors -before he joined merda- that he could come to milan, well , let's just say i was very disapointed , and yes , he is nobody for me even now, when he is on our payroll ( waste of money) ; sedorf and pirlo joined us when they still have something to say in football world wide, they didn't come here to have a warm and puffy retirment.

drucurl · Mar 28, 2008

mam:

I find your comments ungrateful in view of his helping us get through last season. To cay that he came here on a retirement ticket is unfair. He could have made more money in the far east if he was done with his footballing ambitions. He wants the CL and will win it with us if he comes back

atreides602 · Mar 28, 2008

mam - ok, let him win a ucl for us , and then we can talk , till then imo mvb is the best.

drucurl · Mar 28, 2008

mam:

See you in one year

Centre · Mar 28, 2008

mam:

nice. hope its true.

Senatore_M84 · Mar 28, 2008

atreides602 said:
mam - ok, let him win a ucl for us , and then we can talk , till then imo mvb is the best.

i bet mvb would like his world cups though

Centre · Mar 29, 2008

Milano84 said:
i bet mvb would like his world cups though

well done.

N3d0 · Mar 29, 2008

My vote goes to Il Fenomeno. Why? Before that injury against Lazio he was the best striker in the world and no one was even close to him. What he did and achieved deserves a lot of respect. If MvB played little longer maybe he'd be better but...

atreides602 · Mar 29, 2008

Milano84 said:
i bet mvb would like his world cups though

yeah, like is very very very hard to become world champion when u're passport says u're from Brazil .

GreatKalu · Mar 29, 2008

One only needs to watch Euro '88 to be convinced. After 6 months-or-so out with an injury, the 22-23 year old then AC Milan striker came in to score a hattrick (or brace) in a must win match against England.

I'll stress my point again. Ronaldo was a great striker. There's no doubting that. But to label him equal to Maradona and Pele is preposterous. Especially since you're ignoring the many brilliant players that are pretty high up there in the second tier of football greats.

Ronaldo will be remember for his World Cup performances. Especially in 2002, where he had a spectacular array of supporting cast (Rivaldo played the most important role IMO), and Brazil's only real difficult matches were against England and a German side that had their best player suspended (all due respect to the other opponents). But credit must be given where its due ... he is the all-time leading WC scorer, which is quite an achievement. But here's an interesting point ... I honestly do think that had Sheva been Brazilian, he would have easily been in Ronaldo's shoes ... and perhaps even scored more

As for France '98, no matter what is said, there was only one star in that tournament, and that was Zidane. A player who, IMO, was the best player of his generation. I wont go into a debate of player attributes, but I'm sure the majority of football fans will agree with me when I say he was simply head and shoulders above his peers ... and that includes the "beautiful" player himself. Fat is beautiful

Wet Ones · Mar 29, 2008

madtherchot said:
As for France '98, no matter what is said, there was only one star in that tournament, and that was Zidane. A player who, IMO, was the best player of his generation. I wont go into a debate of player attributes, but I'm sure the majority of football fans will agree with me when I say he was simply head and shoulders above his peers ... and that includes the "beautiful" player himself. Fat is beautiful

Zidane was the star for scoring those two goals in the final?

He was sent off against Saudi in the second game and only showed up against Italy (goalless game) and Croatia (arse saved by Thuram) before that final!

I'm sorry, but with the exception of that final, Zidane did NOTHING! Zidane had a MUCH BETTER Euro 2000 but was shut out in that final. Quite Ironic.

Ronaldo actually helped Brazil get to the final! And if not for that mysterious seizure (wouldn't be surprised if the french did something just like the Argentineans did to the Brazilians in 1986) before the game he would have probably made a BIG difference.

Madridista · Mar 29, 2008

madtherchot said:
One only needs to watch Euro '88 to be convinced. After 6 months-or-so out with an injury, the 22-23 year old then AC Milan striker came in to score a hattrick (or brace) in a must win match against England.

I'll stress my point again. Ronaldo was a great striker. There's no doubting that. But to label him equal to Maradona and Pele is preposterous. Especially since you're ignoring the many brilliant players that are pretty high up there in the second tier of football greats.

Ronaldo will be remember for his World Cup performances. Especially in 2002, where he had a spectacular array of supporting cast (Rivaldo played the most important role IMO), and Brazil's only real difficult matches were against England and a German side that had their best player suspended (all due respect to the other opponents). But credit must be given where its due ... he is the all-time leading WC scorer, which is quite an achievement. But here's an interesting point ... I honestly do think that had Sheva been Brazilian, he would have easily been in Ronaldo's shoes ... and perhaps even scored more

As for France '98, no matter what is said, there was only one star in that tournament, and that was Zidane. A player who, IMO, was the best player of his generation. I wont go into a debate of player attributes, but I'm sure the majority of football fans will agree with me when I say he was simply head and shoulders above his peers ... and that includes the "beautiful" player himself. Fat is beautiful

[edited] Starting from the claim that Zidane was 'the star' of France 98 which not only is far from the truth as the poster above said, but its even more ridiculous if you downgrade Ronaldo's WC2002 performance at the same time; and all the way to the dumbest argument ever 'if Sheva was that, then he would this...' :conf:

If you didn't know, Zidane himself said Ronaldo is the most talented player he's ever seen. Ronaldo was much more than just a WC striker and the years at Barca, Inter and Madrid prove that. I agree fully that Zidane is magic, thats why I put him in the top bracket of legends...but he was a midfielder and Ronaldo is a striker. Both beautiful as it gets in their category. I'm not the only one who thinks Ronaldo is in Pele and Maradona's class, look at football sites and forums, people everywhere are saying it.

Anyway, I said what I had to say - btw, I know its a team sport, but I thought we were comparing individual players here. [edited] If fat is beautiful, then you are thin.

GreatKalu · Mar 29, 2008

[edited] Because there was no doubt then that Ronaldo wasn't injury prone, and all blame was of course, Milan Lab's. And there was no possible way that Gilardino would eventually have a better season than Ronaldo (as shitty as that sounds) ... Yep, and as events have turned out, I couldn't possibly have been more correct, and you, well ... wrong.

In the same way, its not possible to think that Zidane is in fact the more complete footballer, and that Ronaldo did indeed have quite a talented bunch behind him in '02. And perhaps Brazil wouldn't be five time champs had it not been for ... Rivaldo. All this is preposterous nonsense ...

And I don't need to look around other websites to substantiate my opions ... I've seen and I've compared, and surprise, I've come up with an opinion of my own. MVB was probably the best forward ever ... was surely a better passer, team player, airier threat + poacher than Ronaldo. He wasn't your stereotypical fancy Brazilian dribbler, but he used intelligent routines at the right time ... and IMO proved more effective. I have no doubt whatsoever that he had the better 'football brain' as did Zidane, and no power, strength, or indeed fetish can make up for it.

PS. Of course I'm not beautiful you idiot

GreatKalu · Mar 29, 2008

And you are ............ Lemme just say that I hope you too don't find men beautiful

(no offense :tongue:

)

PS. Oh, and that my opinion 'sucks' doesn't necessarily mean its incorrect

Madridista · Mar 29, 2008

madtherchot said:
[edited] Because there was no doubt then that Ronaldo wasn't injury prone, and all blame was of course, Milan Lab's. And there was no possible way that Gilardino would eventually have a better season than Ronaldo (as shitty as that sounds) ... Yep, and as events have turned out, I couldn't possibly have been more correct, and you, well ... wrong.

[edited] That has nothing to do with the discussion or the disrespect you show towards Ronaldo not only as a Milan player but as a LEGEND of world football. We were talking about overall ability and past achievements and you posted quite a bit of nonsense like the Sheva example. [edited]

madtherchot said:
In the same way, its not possible to think that Zidane is in fact the more complete footballer, and that Ronaldo did indeed have quite a talented bunch behind him in '02. And perhaps Brazil wouldn't be five time champs had it not been for ... Rivaldo. All this is preposterous nonsense ...

Again youre trying to turn around your previous ridiculous conclusion that Zidane dominated WC1998 and Ronaldo didn't in 2002. Did Zidane not have a talented bunch behind him which even managed to eliminate opponents without him? Wouldn't France be a champion without the fantastic goalie and back four, and Djorkaeff, Petit, Deschamps? No world cup winning team has been crap you know, but that doesn't mean Ronaldo's achievement in 2002 is to be devalued. He was better than Rivaldo in 2002. End of. As far as complete players go I never said Zidane wasn't, but so was Ronaldo, only in a more striker oriented way. And he had the whoa element, the flashyness & attractiveness which separated him from other complete strikers, including Van Basten as his closest.

madtherchot said:
And I don't need to look around other websites to substantiate my opions ... I've seen and I've compared, and surprise, I've come up with an opinion of my own. MVB was probably the best forward ever ... was surely a better passer, team player, airier threat + poacher than Ronaldo. He wasn't your stereotypical fancy Brazilian dribbler, but he used intelligent routines at the right time ... and IMO proved more effective. I have no doubt whatsoever that he had the better 'football brain' as did Zidane, and no power, strength, or indeed fetish can make up for it.

Ronaldo being on Pele and Maradona level is my opinion as well, but its backed up by many and that gives it more weight. Ronaldo has incredible football intelligence which I don't think is lower than any other player in history and his instinct for positioning (meaning making runs onto throughballs as a much more difficult task than getting in the right position when youre in the box to tap or head in) is better than Van Basten's.

madtherchot said:
PS. Of course I'm not beautiful you idiot

You're not many things.
:rolleyes:

GreatKalu · Mar 29, 2008

[edited]

MVB, Zidane > Ronaldo. Period.

drucurl · Mar 29, 2008

madtherchot said:
One only needs to watch Euro '88 to be convinced. After 6 months-or-so out with an injury, the 22-23 year old then AC Milan striker came in to score a hattrick (or brace) in a must win match against England.

I'll stress my point again. Ronaldo was a great striker. There's no doubting that. But to label him equal to Maradona and Pele is preposterous. Especially since you're ignoring the many brilliant players that are pretty high up there in the second tier of football greats.

Ronaldo will be remember for his World Cup performances. Especially in 2002, where he had a spectacular array of supporting cast (Rivaldo played the most important role IMO), and Brazil's only real difficult matches were against England and a German side that had their best player suspended (all due respect to the other opponents). But credit must be given where its due ... he is the all-time leading WC scorer, which is quite an achievement. But here's an interesting point ... I honestly do think that had Sheva been Brazilian, he would have easily been in Ronaldo's shoes ... and perhaps even scored more

As for France '98, no matter what is said, there was only one star in that tournament, and that was Zidane. A player who, IMO, was the best player of his generation. I wont go into a debate of player attributes, but I'm sure the majority of football fans will agree with me when I say he was simply head and shoulders above his peers ... and that includes the "beautiful" player himself. Fat is beautiful

Ronaldo9 honestly I don't know why you bother with madtherchot Zidane dominated ??WC 98 roflmafo!!! Zidane was good no doubt but to say he dominated..when really the main attraction was Ronaldo is beyond ridiculous...... :head:

zidane even got red carded and missed a game while defenses were going like :conf:

every time Ronaldo ran at them......as a matter of a fact Ronaldo 2002 was nowhere close to Ronaldo 98....the only advantage was the QUANTITY of goals he scored....[edited] Ronaldo wasn't even the best player in 2002 Rivaldo was but statistically ronaldo was better.

How could Zidane be the best of his generation, when at his peak he was duking it out with Rivaldo, Figo and Nedved?? Ronaldo at his peak won the WOPY TWICE in a row.....also being the youngest to do it......and beating the likes of Batigol, Weah etc ....Infact Zidane won his wopy in 99 only because of the WC....Ronaldo was second.

Everybody is jerking off to Zidane's performances in Real...but nobody seems to care that as soon as Makalele, Hierro and Del Bosque left what a shit team Real were.... Zidane always needs a fantastic squad behind him that's the truth

drucurl · Mar 29, 2008

atreides602 said:
Ronaldo was indeed the star in 1998 wc , i still remember the parmalat comercial, when a young ronaldo was feed by his moom with a good glass of milk

Lol

that might be so but when Ronaldo was finished with any opponent thy actually were dead (like Germany in '02) or couldn't walk for days

Hey Ronaldo9 ask Madtherchot why he continually harps on Ronaldo's injury/fitness problems while MVB actually retired due to injury. You ask him....I'm not very good at speaking ...er...er....his language

atreides602 · Mar 29, 2008

mam - maybe because mvb wasn't fakeing injuries to go dancing in RIO during carnavals ,dunno :tongue:

Wild · Mar 30, 2008

about Ronaldo said:
Excuse me for interfering, but you are tripping. If you think Ronaldo did not have a marquee game during that period, then you have not paid enough attention to the season.

Your point is moot because Ronaldo had the necessary marquee game in order to be considered the best in the world.
I can give you some examples. For instance, take the game against Valencia at the beginning of November 1996. In that game, Ronaldo scores twice after running through the middle of Valencia's defense and another one with a powerful finish from about 20 yards. And the last goal, after succesfully taking on 4 defenders, was a game winner !
I can point out a similar performance against Atletico (and no, Atletico did not suck as much as now in 1997) in April 1997, when he scored a hat-trick against them, one of his goal being again of the highest quality, a faint to the right to beat the defender and a perfect shot from more than 20 yards.
Since the game against Compostela was mentioned, every one remembers that goal, but does anyone remembedr that match ? How Ronaldo played ? Barca beat Compostela 5 - 1, Ronaldo scored twice and created two other goals, one after he left a defender on his ass with an elastico and another one with one of his shots being deflected into the net by a defender. Two goals and two assists, after superb plays, what more can be said ?
In regard to that game, there is only one player I've seen to have a similar goal/assist ratio in a match on a regular basis and that is Edson Arantes do Nascimento. If you have watched games of Pele in his pomp, you'll know what I mean.
Ronaldo was unlikely to reach the same number of assists, because as a number 9 he does not get in the position to supply his teammates as much as a number 10 (Pele), yet it seems that he was developing fast this aspect of his game. The game against Denmark in 1998, when Ronaldo puts through balls for Rivaldo and Bebeto, stands evidence.

So, actually Ronaldo had such games against Valencia and At.Madrid. Plus I think there was also a 3 - 2 against Madrid in Copa del Rey with a top-class performance of Ronaldo. Can't recall details of that one though since Copa del Rey wasn't broadcasted in my country.

Add to this his performances day in day out in La Liga. The all-time goals. The plays. Etc, Etc.

Besides there is another issue. Ronaldo was implementing at the time a style of fotball which was rarely seen in the history of football. The player-alien who battles entire defenses on his own and beats them singlehandedly, cutting through hordes of opposing players as if they weren't there. It's a very explosive style and it's so rare because it requires a package of abilities which very few players posess, each honed to perfection :

- exquisite dribbling skills, in order to beat defenses in tight confines and players appearing in front of you at full speed ; and I'm not talking about dribbling skills a la Ronaldinho or whatever, I'm talking about dribbling abilities good enough to put you on par with the finest dribblers that ever existed, like Canhoteiro, Matthews, Pele, Garrincha, Best, Jairzinho, Cruyff, Maradona, etc. I found it amusing all the hype about C.Ronaldo's step-over, when in comparison with Ronaldo's original step-over from 1996-1998, who was performed at full speed (see his goal against Lazio in the UEFA cup 1998, the way the sends the keeper to pick daysies with a step-over for evidence) is nothing but schoolplay ;

- great speed in order to outrun defenders closing down of you ;

- great strength in order to resist charges, so that defenders could not push you off balance.

Injuries robbed Ronaldo of what could have been his prime, because this is a style which, in order to be performed succesfully, required 100% use of the player's physical qualities.

But There has been only 3 top-class players who combined all these 3 aspects and managed to put to use this type of game : Pele (1959-1966), Maradona (1979-1987) and Ronaldo (1996-1998) (with Eusebio close behind).

Besides, Ronaldo had other qualities added to that package.

Look at his finishings for instance. Ronaldo's finishing was equal to the greatest finishers in the game, Pele, Muller, Van Basten and Romario. It was simply perfect. There has been no striker in current football who can finish like prime Ronaldo ! NONE ! No Eto'o, no Henry, Shevchenko, Van Nistelrooy, Shearer, Batistuta, Inzaghi, Raul, etc. In fact, the precision of those finishings reminds me of Zico's passing : it's simply milimetric. What made it even more remarkable was the fact that this fellow was capable to hit the ball perfectly at full speed, without slowing down a bit ! Can you imagine the difficulty to apply such finishings while dashing towards the goal ?

One of Ronaldo's particularities in his Barca days was to spot openings in the opposite defenses and dash towards the goal (and thanks to his formidable acceleration, it was very hard - practically impossible, I would say - for defenders to catch up with him). So, I would point out Ronaldo's excelent positioning for the long balls and through balls of De la Pena, Giovanni or Figo. His ability to free himself of the marking is EXQUISITE. Ronaldo had an excellent ability to spot and exploit the gaps in the opposite defenses, dashing towards the goal. Maradona or Zico, for instance, had this ability too, but they used it rather to create chances for their teammates rather than score themselves, hence their magnificent through balls, which represent the supreme mastery of his skill which has ever been seen on a football pitch.

There is also Ronaldo's ability to carry a ball from midfield towards the box at full speed which was the best in history and equal to Eusebio's. The difference between them was that Ronaldo usually prefered clinical finishings from 10-18 yards, while Eusebio will send you a cannon from around 16-30 yards, because he was a superior long range shooter.

The point is that Ronaldo had all-time great (and I'm refering to the highest class of all-timers, like Pele and company) written all over him. Only Pele had a superior package.
It can be questioned whether he was better than all-time greats likeMaradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano or even Pele. IMO, he was not, because he was still a raw product and at the time it's perfectly true that he did not have a marquee performances on an all-time scale in order to propel him up there with Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, etc.
What makes me hesitate on the issue was that Ronaldo's performance in the 6 trophy clincher games he played in 1996-1998 (twice against Real and Juve in the league, against PSG in C2 in 1997 and Lazio in the C3 in 1998) was not something truly historical. His game against Lazio, the best of the bunch, was class, but IMO not all-time material. Had he overcome this obstacle (utterly destroy one elite opponent in a big game - championship derby against the main title contenders or big final at WC Level or European Cup), then what he did in 1996-1998 could be considered top 3 ever (or maybe even the best, depends on everyone's preference). But for him being best player in the world at the time, it was more than enough.

Comparing Zidane 2 Ronaldo isnt fair coz both play in a different position.
Ronaldo-VanBasten is more logic.
Its very silly 2 think that VanBasten better than Ronaldo is a sure thing when Ronaldo scored as twice as VanBasten.
4 me the judgment can go either way coz both r among the greatest.
Its more debatable than u think & ppl of this forum thinking them sayin MVB is better should b enough 2 say so is really silly.
MVB was never a player who can bring u victory on his own like Roanldo was & that’s what exactly made Maradona unique.
4get all the speed , dribbles & tricks , Ronaldo’s finishing was equal if not better than MVB.
I remember MVB wasting chances much more than Ronaldo doin so..
On the other hand , statistics lean 2ward Ronaldo so yes, ppl who r saying R9 is better can back up there opinion with facts rather than personal opinion.
Also Ronaldo coming back from injury when all said he is over n done + scoring 8 goals bypassing the 6 goals barrier that was a mark 4 many previous WCs + becoming the all time scorer of WC is enough 2 consider him a legend.
Also MVB was injured after his peak while I think Ronaldo was injured prior 2 it.
Am not good in finding statistics , but can any1 post stats of em ?

Wet Ones · Mar 30, 2008

Wild said:
Am not good in finding statistics , but can any1 post stats of em ?

Apps (Gls)

Van Basten

1982-1987 Ajax 133 (128)
1987-1993 Milan 147 (90)

For Holland - 58 (24)

Ronaldo

1993-1994 Cruzerio 13 (12)
1994-1996 Psv 46 (42)
1996-1997 Barca 37 (34)
1997-2002 Shit 69 (49)
2002-2007 Real 127 (83)
2007 Milan 16 (9)

For Brazil - 97 (62)

Besfort · Mar 30, 2008

Ronaldo
Brazil - 97 games, 62 goals

Van Basten
Holland - 58 games, 24 goals

Wild · Mar 30, 2008

That was quick , thx guys.

But which 1 is true ? LOL

Ronaldo OR Van Basten

Who was a better striker

Ronaldo

Marco Van Basten

They were both equally good since Marco wasn't that fast and Ronaldo couldn't head a beach ball

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