Who was better

G.Costanza · Jul 15, 2013

Nesta and Cannavaro were as good as Ronaldo and Messi are today, the presence and the intelligence they had was through the sky, and they were not that phsyical, sure as hell they were quick and agile but not a monster physically.

To this very day the only guy I really regret not being in Milan anymore is Nesta. You know he was just different.

crazy4milan · Jul 15, 2013

I would say defenses are experimenting a tactical change/adaptation, which means very little individuals are great defenders. There's been a radical change midfield on top, and defensive schemes haven't really figure out how to adapt to it themselves, which becomes harder for top defenders to emerge.

That said Hierro nor Cafú were great top defenders, or defensive legends. They were no different from the medium/goodish enough crop of these days (which IMO its actually what we have in abundance nowadays). Hierro's worth was in the leadership side, but his defensive quality was no different from a Paolo Cannavaro, and Cafú was a great wingback, offensive fullback, his defensive skills were good enough to survive but nothing to write about in the "OMG WHY DONT WE HAVE MORE DEFENDERS LIKE CAFU" department.

(ps. another issue, if you ask me, is the focus on fullbacks having to be more attacking than defensive skills, most fullbacks nowadays are mostly offensive fullbacks with little defensive skills, and people hate more defensive oriented fullbacks, I blame Roberto Carlos on this "evolution").

PaoloMaldini3 · Jul 15, 2013

How good was Rui Costa in comparision to players like Zidane or Iniesta?

I couldn't really see him in his prime...

manutd fan · Jul 15, 2013

jammin said:
How the hell does less great defenders and better attackers "counter-balance"?

Meant to say balance it out...

As in the forwards are so good these days that they'll exploit opportunities much more than the forwards 15 years ago did.

Defences = slightly worse
Forwards = slightly better.

leaf said:
See below

Better attackers and worse defenders would exacerbate the issue and inflate the stats no? Fucking Barca and Real Madrid get a penalty almost every game. I remember a time when a penalty wasn't so common as it is today.

Ferdinand is great but I really can't put him in the class of Nesta and co (not this shit again ). John Terry is good as well but overall as a player I'd rate him below Ferdinand and by the aforementioned assumptions FAR beneath Nesta and Cannavaro. Vidic is class though but so slow....Stam shits all over him to be honest. Face it, our era is shit defensively.

A revolting combination of greed, the premiership's commercial dominance and fifa's moronic decisions are responsible for this. The "thinkers" or the cerebral players are becoming an endangered specie in today's game that (over) emphasizes pace, strength and fitness. The balls are lighter and follow less predictable trajectories, enhancing the possibility of "errant" or fluke goals.

In the era where defenders could manhandle attackers and get away with it, scoring came at a (rightful) premium. Now Italy can get past Australia with a zero contact dive

Fucking Pele didn't used to get half the calls he deserved because he was black ffs Nowadays players can get banned for months for saying racist shit.

Tackles from behind are straight red card etc etc...Attackers are far more protected and dare I say assisted by the legislation of the game. Hence don't fucking ask me to view average players with inflated stats the same as I viewed Batigol and fucking Ronaldo

Nesta's the best defender I've seen but you're definitely underestimating players like Ferdinand and, as much as I hate to say it, Terry. Vidic has an argument to be put over Stam - the latter was equally as strong and definitely quicker, but he wasn't as good at dealing with tricksters for example. Guys like Stam/Rio/Vidic are definitely in the same 'group' (I'd rate all 3 below Nesta but above Cannavaro). Just my opinion anyway, though I do agree there's less 'special' defenders around now.

You raise good points, but as you said yourself players are much fitter/stronger now, and tactically teams are much stronger.

I also think age has something to do with it. You're obviously much smarter now than you were 10-15 years ago when you might have been about 15 years old. At that age you don't really focus on the little details. Batistuta scores a great goal and all younger people would do is rave about the shot. When you get older you question the defending and criticize the goalkeeper - something which you wouldn't do when you were younger. The nostalgia factor definitely plays a part with all of us.

I don't believe for a second the overall standard of the game has gotten worse.

Congo Powers · Jul 15, 2013

Some ppl always gonna exaggerate the past..overrate etc etc

For me shit is exactly the same as its ever been

@paolomaldini3 rui costa was probably the best attacking midfielder in the world a season or so before we bought him. He was never consistently at that level for us. Redondo was probbly the worlds best cm around the time we bought him too....

But it's easy to gloss over that and talk about rui costa as a mythical 10 for Milan when in reality he was not.

Youth · Jul 15, 2013

Congo Powers said:
Some ppl always gonna exaggerate the past..overrate etc etc

For me shit is exactly the same as its ever been

@paolomaldini3 rui costa was probably the best attacking midfielder in the world a season or so before we bought him. He was never consistently at that level for us. Redondo was probbly the worlds best cm around the time we bought him too....

But it's easy to gloss over that and talk about rui costa as a mythical 10 for Milan when in reality he was not.

Very rare to see Congo like this.

I give all my four thumbs for you. :thumbsup:

Absolutely agree with the bold part. Unfortunately we got unperformed-at-highest-level Rui Costa and Redondo. Same case with Ronaldo and Ronaldinho. Even with Emerson.

PaoloMaldini3 · Jul 15, 2013

Thanks to both. And how good was he for us?

crazy4milan · Jul 15, 2013

PaoloMaldini3 said:
Thanks to both. And how good was he for us?

Not near as good as his price tag. He was good, just never got to the WC level before us.

We never got near this from him, good performances, good assist count, little goals, a good set to have a nice youtube highlight reel, but he wasn't consistent in his performances, and often drifted to forgotten land, age caught up fast.

In fact, IIRC, we got Kaka fast cause Rui wasn't viewed as a man to carry us for a long season to fight in all fronts, specially considering we had younger Seedorf + Pirlo who both were slow (not as slow as in their last seasons with us,, but imagine those speed monsters + Rui already in 2003), we needed some pace/explosivity...in 2001 it made sense to keep believing in him, but when Pirlo + Seedorf became real factors, with better and more consistent performances and more potential...Rui was dropped.

The Black Pearl · Jul 15, 2013

crazy4milan said:
Not near as good as his price tag. He was good, just never got to the WC level before us.

We never got near this from him, good performances, good assist count, little goals, a good set to have a nice youtube highlight reel, but he wasn't consistent in his performances, and often drifted to forgotten land, age caught up fast.

In fact, IIRC, we got Kaka fast cause Rui wasn't viewed as a man to carry us for a long season to fight in all fronts, specially considering we had younger Seedorf + Pirlo who both were slow (not as slow as in their last seasons with us,, but imagine those speed monsters + Rui already in 2003), we needed some pace/explosivity...in 2001 it made sense to keep believing in him, but when Pirlo + Seedorf became real factors, with better and more consistent performances and more potential...Rui was dropped.

I agree with all of u, simply not good enough considering he was among world s best before he arrived. He had assists, linked up with Sheva well, but i think (didnt check stats) he scored ver few goals for us. Worst part for me was the fact that he supposed to be free kick maestro and he scored only 1 for us or so.

leaf · Jul 15, 2013

manutd fan said:
Meant to say balance it out...

As in the forwards are so good these days that they'll exploit opportunities much more than the forwards 15 years ago did.

Defences = slightly worse
Forwards = slightly better.

Nesta's the best defender I've seen but you're definitely underestimating players like Ferdinand and, as much as I hate to say it, Terry. Vidic has an argument to be put over Stam - the latter was equally as strong and definitely quicker, but he wasn't as good at dealing with tricksters for example. Guys like Stam/Rio/Vidic are definitely in the same 'group' (I'd rate all 3 below Nesta but above Cannavaro). Just my opinion anyway, though I do agree there's less 'special' defenders around now.

You raise good points, but as you said yourself players are much fitter/stronger now, and tactically teams are much stronger.

I also think age has something to do with it. You're obviously much smarter now than you were 10-15 years ago when you might have been about 15 years old. At that age you don't really focus on the little details. Batistuta scores a great goal and all younger people would do is rave about the shot. When you get older you question the defending and criticize the goalkeeper - something which you wouldn't do when you were younger. The nostalgia factor definitely plays a part with all of us.

I don't believe for a second the overall standard of the game has gotten worse.

Again you are confirming that life is better for the forwards. Defenders being less competent is a plus and the level of the attackers being higher (according to you) also works in their favour

Yeah I think Nesta is the best and that Canna is a tad overrated. I'll let you get away with Ferdinand and Vidic being close to him

As for Vidic>Stam :lol:

Yeah as an old fart I admit to being a bit more nostalgic. Sue me

Senatore_M84 · Jul 15, 2013

leaf said:
See below

Better attackers and worse defenders would exacerbate the issue and inflate the stats no? Fucking Barca and Real Madrid get a penalty almost every game. I remember a time when a penalty wasn't so common as it is today.

more to do w/ difference quality between those 2 and other 18.

financial gap created in spain makes valencia and co .irrelevant. I remember when they were legit contenders

leaf · Jul 15, 2013

Senatore_M84 said:
more to do w/ difference quality between those 2 and other 18.

financial gap created in spain makes valencia and co .irrelevant. I remember when they were legit contenders

The financial gap directly correlates into squad quality. Real and Bartha choose the cream of the crop. The rest get whatever remains. Bayern does it in Germany as well by cannibalizing their league's talent.

Senatore_M84 · Jul 15, 2013

leaf said:
The financial gap directly correlates into squad quality. Real and Bartha choose the cream of the crop. The rest get whatever remains. Bayern does it in Germany as well by cannibalizing their league's talent.

yes but german teams (non-bayern) are also way healthier financially to build something

madrid and barca always had a financial gap but these days it's out of control. 500 mil v. like 90 mil for valencia

and all the other spanish clubs r nose deep in debt, germany isn't

-

i just find la liga so dull these days. It's not just fact madrid or barca win league, it's fact they regularly win 5-0, 6-0

Eccolo · Jul 16, 2013

Well in the long run there will be handfull of teams that are able to win trophys, both in their own league but also in the european cups. Specially if the FFP is implemented in the way it is supposed to. Its evident Spain already but we also see it to a certain extent in Germany and Italy.

Sven · Jul 16, 2013

It seems to me many Spanish club are doing like Brazilian/Argentine clubs.

They grow players in their academies to sell to other leagues and even Russia/Ukraine. They'll not reinvest that buying players though, they count on that money to improve their wage bill, pay debts and so on.

There's more and more Spanish players around Europe... Not only in the top tier.

Soldier_of_god · Jul 16, 2013

The Black Pearl said:
I agree with all of u, simply not good enough considering he was among world s best before he arrived. He had assists, linked up with Sheva well, but i think (didnt check stats) he scored ver few goals for us. Worst part for me was the fact that he supposed to be free kick maestro and he scored only 1 for us or so.

would you older posters say that rui was a flop for his huge price tag? isnt he our most expensive transfer ever. Was he comparable to guys like zidane and how much of an impact did he have in our 2003 ucl triumph?

Congo Powers · Jul 16, 2013

in his prime yes comparable to zidane

absolutely vital to cl 2003

necromancer · Jul 16, 2013

Congo Powers said:
Some ppl always gonna exaggerate the past..overrate etc etc

For me shit is exactly the same as its ever been

@paolomaldini3 rui costa was probably the best attacking midfielder in the world a season or so before we bought him. He was never consistently at that level for us. Redondo was probbly the worlds best cm around the time we bought him too....

But it's easy to gloss over that and talk about rui costa as a mythical 10 for Milan when in reality he was not.

Well put. Completely agree. Exaggerating the past is very common.

vB9 · Jul 16, 2013

Wonder if in 10/15yrs they say that we glorified Messi too much. Another point, dont knock the greats from their pedestals... Cafu is fucking one them! Far too much crap abt Cafu has been said in this crappy thread.

The Black Pearl · Jul 16, 2013

milan_swagger said:
would you older posters say that rui was a flop for his huge price tag? isnt he our most expensive transfer ever. Was he comparable to guys like zidane and how much of an impact did he have in our 2003 ucl triumph?

Never said he was a flop, sounds too harsh. But he wasnt good enough imo, he was among worlds best players before he arrived comparable to Zidane. He wasnt really comparable to Zidane in milan years, but still cant say he s a flop, Zidane does set standards really high. More goals were expected from Rui even tough he was midfielder. A 1 or 2 Scudetto s more were expected in that era i d say we had really great team. CL 2003. was a funny1. Sheva was injured for first group stage and Pippo was scoring like crazy. We got Sheva back for 2nd group stage and finished in front of Real Madrid. Quaterfinal were shocking we barely beated Ajax with i think Tomasson late goal. Than semis against inter were also hard we came trough with Sheva away goal. And than that final game lol. Carletto decided to put in Roque Junior who barely played a game during a season. Poor guy got injured and we had no subs left so i had to watch entire extra time of junior limping by the aut line lol. Penalty s came n jube bastards choked big time so we won haha. Our defence was great all the way teams really had a hard time scoring against us. We even had RIvaldo that year lol but he wasnt much of an impact.
Did i mention Rui? Nope. he wasnt that crucial for us but we did have a great team even without him. But Rui was really fun to watch in his defence. Amazing technical ability he had, also the softest of touches, he was so gentle to the ball

. Great driblings, really exciting player. We had other champions than who were great, i guess we didnt need Rui so badly. Rui is a Milanista and a true gentelman so from now on i will speak only positive of him its what he deserves.
What sad is tht we became a joke broke club who does nothin but selling out hard earned reputation since then. CL 2007. was a huge suprise during that awful process wich is still lasting. Ffs we cant even spare 3mil for frikin Honda, so sad. Idk how much respect and reputation we have to sell.

necromancer · Jul 16, 2013

Sven said:
It seems to me many Spanish club are doing like Brazilian/Argentine clubs.

They grow players in their academies to sell to other leagues and even Russia/Ukraine. They'll not reinvest that buying players though, they count on that money to improve their wage bill, pay debts and so on.

There's more and more Spanish players around Europe... Not only in the top tier.

Excellent model if you ask me. The idea that being a 'selling club' is a negative indicator is rapidly becoming old-fashioned.

Selling players is a very good revenue stream for any club, whether big or small. Especially in an inflated market, one MUST sell if one has developed young players who are hyped and overpriced (which is another function of today's football - FM, excited teenagers, oil money, even U-17 players being hyped etc.).

Casualista · Jul 16, 2013

Remember the days when people enjoyed football for football's sake....

necromancer · Jul 16, 2013

^Nothing stops the fans from enjoying the game. There's too much visibility about the finances and the nitty-gritties of club management now, that's why it seems like 'football is dead' or whatever. Even back in the 80s or 90s, clubs indulged in so many financially interesting practices, but no one knew because the only media available was the local paper or television.

Casualista · Jul 16, 2013

Not really commented about how this affects enjoyment of games but I sure as hell would prefer my club to build a sustainable financial model around winning rather than primarily making profits or surviving.

I deplore udinese mentality clubs. If you want a business primarily for profit... there are better ways that money can be spent.

necromancer · Jul 16, 2013

What if I'm a rich man who loves football but is also not prepared to lose money over it? A perfectly natural state of mind if you ask me.

You're basically saying that self-sustainability is secondary to entertainment. Very risky attitude and one that led to many clubs going bankrupt after brief periods of glory.

Casualista · Jul 16, 2013

What are you? Venkys owner?

yagami7gnr · Jul 16, 2013

alyaboulenein said:
I've recently replied to the Greatest XI Milan thread and there's been some really tough decisions to make, and since I've only been watching Milan from 2003 I need help, so you can you help me out my answering the following questions?

1-Who is Milan's greatest goalkeepers ever? Milan have never had a World Class keeper, but who is Milan's best ever GK? Is it Dida despite making many mistakes?

2-This is for older fans, Who was better Cafu or Mauro Tassotti?

3-Who would you say is better Thiago Silva or Stam?

4-Desailly ior Gattuso who is better as a defensive midfielder

5-What was Frank Rijkard's MAIN position?

6-What was Ruid Gullit apart from being a striker, I know he played as a midfielder sometimes but was he an attacking midfielder, a deep-lying playmaker like Pirlo, a defensive midfielder or what?

7-Who would you consider to be Milan's greatest ever striker?

8-Who was better Seedorf or Rui Costa or Kaka? (All at their prime)

9-Who was better Nesta or Costacurta

Please answer in as much detail as possible and thanks

1. Dida, I would say; however, nobody great or consistent at GK.

2. Two different types of RB. I would say Cafu; though.

3. Thiago Silva.

4. Gattusso, IMO. Desailly was the most gifted player; but, Gattusso brought an extra presence on the field.

5. Rikjaard was an all around midfielder. A true beast in midfield.

6. Gullit was a AM.

7. Marco Van Basten. He was perfection. Nobody has even came close at how good or complete his skill-set was.

8. Kaka

9. That is not even a question. Nesta was better hands down. Nesta was the best CB that I have seen overall. Baresi is a close second. Billy was third or fourth greatest CB in Milan history.

leaf · Jul 16, 2013

Iscariot said:
Not really commented about how this affects enjoyment of games but I sure as hell would prefer my club to build a sustainable financial model around winning rather than primarily making profits or surviving.

I deplore udinese mentality clubs. If you want a business primarily for profit... there are better ways that money can be spent.

OMG there are still people like this :eek:

Football is ENTERTAINMENT. End of story. The "win at all cost" mentality is a direct by product of the rapidly increased commercialization of the game. But NOW the "win at all cost" has been replaced by the "get rich or die trying / make money at all cost" mentality

Arsenal are so comfy in their financial model that I wonder if upper management even gives a shit about ever winning again :fp:

And slowly and surely the other clubs are all basically becoming permutations of Arsenal / Udinese.

Probably five years or so ago, fans used to want good players to play for our team...now everybody is talking about who deserves what wage, which is the better tax structure, contract elements (which are often fucking hilarious because the way 90% of this forum talks about reducing players' wages because they deem not to be worth the aforementioned clearly betrays their lack of knowledge of contract law) etc etc. Players have simply become stock/assets...and we wonder why so many of them are fucking mercenaries :rolleyes:

I fear the worst. Very pessimistic that the beautiful game has been eclipsed by the financial game. It's polluting everything....Gotze's Nike fiasco, shoe companies interfering with the team's policies, players preferring to dive, cheat and play dirty because they know how much $$ they stand to lose if they don't win.....yes it's been going on for nearly a century but not on this scale.
Even more tragic is that this situation is irreversible. Would YOU agree for a fraction of your salary because you are deemed to be "too rich"?

Fiero · Jul 16, 2013

Iscariot said:
Not really commented about how this affects enjoyment of games but I sure as hell would prefer my club to build a sustainable financial model around winning rather than primarily making profits or surviving.

I deplore udinese mentality clubs. If you want a business primarily for profit... there are better ways that money can be spent.

Udinese have a great model for what they are - a provincial club. Not all teams could compete for trophies.

And what the fuck does a 'sustainable financial model around winning' matter in your (a fan) enjoyment of football? Do you enjoy watching Bayern because they have excellent balance sheets or because they play a brand of football you like?

Casualista · Jul 16, 2013

Fiero said:
Udinese have a great model for what they are - a provincial club. Not all teams could compete for trophies.

And what the fuck does a 'sustainable financial model around winning' matter in your (a fan) enjoyment of football? Do you enjoy watching Bayern because they have excellent balance sheets or because they play a brand of football you like?

I disagree.

Udinese have had good enough players to be very competitive in the league if they had decided to hold on to their players. And it's not like holding on to their players would have put them in the red or anything. Instead they sold their best players even after entering UCL qualification rounds rather than building on what they had.

I am not oblivious to Udinese's capabilities but they have chosen to stay there rather than expanding on ambitions.

They are fundamentally a club looking for profit rather than trophies even when opportunities present themselves otherwise..

As far as bayern goes... I obviously care about how they play their football... But I do care about their business model as well. Since it is a model that combines winning and revenues. They wont go into oblivion like Lazio did a decade back.... 5 years ago I probably didnt care... But blame Galliani's excuses that has made me look into all these things.

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