Preferred Formation

can this happen?

-------------borriello----berbatov-------------
----------------------------------------------
--miguel angel angulo--------------david ginola-
----------------------------------------------
----------becks!-------guti!------------------
----------------------------------------------
--coco------------------------------F.borrielo
--------------cb---------cb------------------
-------------------dida-----------------------

Congo Powers said:

can this happen?

-------------borriello----berbatov-------------
----------------------------------------------
--miguel angel angulo--------------david ginola-
----------------------------------------------
----------becks!-------guti!------------------
----------------------------------------------
--coco------------------------------F.borrielo
--------------cb---------cb------------------
-------------------dida-----------------------

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Only In your dream

Sod-Lod said:

Only In your dream

Click to expand...

Yes, and only his.

I don't have a preferred formation anymore.

-hunterlaar--paloschi-
-pato-
-flamini--cigarini--verratti-
-criscito--nesta-silva--abate-
--abbiati--

that's what i want for next season

Based on what we have and coming off this terrible derby I'd like to see:

Storari
Zambrotta-Nesta-Tsilva-Antonini
Seedorf-Ambrosini-Flamini
Abate-Pato-Dinho

Congo Powers said:

can this happen?

-------------borriello----berbatov-------------
----------------------------------------------
--miguel angel angulo--------------david ginola-
----------------------------------------------
----------becks!-------guti!------------------
----------------------------------------------
--coco------------------------------F.borrielo
--------------Roque Jonur---------Miguel Angel Nadal ------------------
-------------------S.Rossi-----------------------

Click to expand...

Fixed

Revolution said:

-hunterlaar--paloschi-
-pato-
-flamini--cigarini--verratti-
-criscito--nesta-silva--abate-
--abbiati--

that's what i want for next season

Click to expand...

For next season i think theres a chance of we see Adriano in that foward line.

Abs

Bonera-Nesta-Silva-Zambrotta

Flamini Pirlo Jankulovski

Dinho/Seedorf

Pato Hunter

I suggest we use defensive fullbacks like Bonera and Zambrotta to solve the full back problem that we have, Bonera and Zambrotta will give Jankulosvki and Flamini more freedom to attack without having to track back and cover for the fullbacks.

Jankulovski on the left side of midfield is a much better option than Ambro/Flamini as he can attack well and is a good crosser of the ball, while Flamini can be the runner/ball winner in the team and contribute in attack.

The right side may seem to defensive but having Abate at RB might be a risk as he isnt tactically good enough to be a fullback(then again neither is Janku) and Bonera has proved that he is a solid FB and a good crosser of the ball, but may lack in skills and bursts of pace.

This is the only way IMO that we can have a balanced defence/attack and the midfielders can attack freely without having the burden to track back and cover or get counter attacked by the wings.

I also think we should rotate between seedorf and Dinho to keep competetion alive in the team in order to see the best out of these 2..a unfit Seedorf last night played much better than a "fully fit" Dinho who was good against Siena last week.

Milanista_13_33 said:

Abs

Bonera-Nesta-Silva-Zambrotta

Flamini Pirlo Jankulovski

Dinho/Seedorf

Pato Hunter

I suggest we use defensive fullbacks like Bonera and Zambrotta to solve the full back problem that we have, Bonera and Zambrotta will give Jankulosvki and Flamini more freedom to attack without having to track back and cover for the fullbacks.

Jankulovski on the left side of midfield is a much better option than Ambro/Flamini as he can attack well and is a good crosser of the ball, while Flamini can be the runner/ball winner in the team and contribute in attack.

The right side may seem to defensive but having Abate at RB might be a risk as he isnt tactically good enough to be a fullback(then again neither is Janku) and Bonera has proved that he is a solid FB and a good crosser of the ball, but may lack in skills and bursts of pace.

This is the only way IMO that we can have a balanced defence/attack and the midfielders can attack freely without having the burden to track back and cover or get counter attacked by the wings.

I also think we should rotate between seedorf and Dinho to keep competetion alive in the team in order to see the best out of these 2..a unfit Seedorf last night played much better than a "fully fit" Dinho who was good against Siena last week.

Click to expand...

i think exactly the same

For the Livorno game I'd like to see:

-----------------Storari----------------
--Zambrotta--Nesta--Silva--Abate------
--Ambrosini------Pirlo-----Famini----
-----------------Dinho-----------------
-------Hunter------------Pato---------

(assuming there are no new signings, which I hope is not the case)

I'd also have Gooch, Seedorf, and Antonini ready to come in to handle any damage control if necessary. Hope Rino gets better soon. Rafinha or Adriano at LB would be great so that we could possibly use Abate at middy, but who knows...

All we have to do is switch Pirlo and Flamini's positions. If we do that, we will win a lot of games.

Astafjevs said:

All we have to do is switch Pirlo and Flamini's positions. If we do that, we will win a lot of games.

Click to expand...

eureka!

Astafjevs said:

All we have to do is switch Pirlo and Flamini's positions. If we do that, we will win a lot of games.

Click to expand...

I dunno about that, flamini on the side allows him more movement forward, which he is very good at. Think back to siena game, his run to assist (pass from dinho)... i cant see any of our other mids (minus abate) making that run.

I want to drop ronnie next game and try the diamond like this...


1 problem leo mentioned is when ronnie plays AM he plays higher up so our midfield has to be more compact. Its probably why abate hasnt gotten on the field. Playing seedorf there allows a little more defensive protection and a 4 man midfield not a 3 man. Abate and flamini run the most of all our midfielders, so they can definitely get up in support.

of course i think it'd be best if we convert abate to a wingback...then we can move clarence to RCM and ronnie can play. That might be too attacking....

But i think seedorf has earned right to start next week.

Anyway we got a 2 weeks break, we can work on alot with players like abate, di gennaro etc. After last weeks embarassment w/ inter leo better make changes otherwise he risks losing the squad

Astafjevs said:

All we have to do is switch Pirlo and Flamini's positions. If we do that, we will win a lot of games.

Click to expand...

Exactly. Very True. Flamini would do a great job in Pirlo's place, but we would miss his speed on the wings.

Soldier said:

Exactly. Very True. Flamini would do a great job in Pirlo's place, but we would miss his speed on the wings.

Click to expand...

flamini has 1/5th the passing range of pirlo, flamini is best in a running role. He is our only regular midfielder w/ high work rate. WHY move him to a position that sits deep?

Milano84 said:

flamini has 1/5th the passing range of pirlo, flamini is best in a running role. He is our only regular midfielder w/ high work rate. WHY move him to a position that sits deep?

Click to expand...

He knows how to control a game tempo, he's very good at those shot-range passes which will suit our current system, especially with Silva handling the long-range situations. But as I said we'd miss his speed.

Milano84 said:

I dunno about that, flamini on the side allows him more movement forward, which he is very good at. Think back to siena game, his run to assist (pass from dinho)... i cant see any of our other mids (minus abate) making that run.

Click to expand...

The reason Flamini is starting ahead of Ambrosini is because he is quicker and more mobile. Flamini is the midfielder tasked with doing everything - that is he is meant to get up and support the attack (as you highlighted), and get back and defend. Again, you correctly point out that he is the only midfielder who does this attacking role.

However, he is there because he can get back quickly to support Jankulovski. He can supposedly do both roles effectively. Problem is - he can't. Every one of the goals we have conceded this season have been from problems on the left. Flamini can't keep supporting the attack, and then getting back and helping Jankulovski because no player has everlasting fitness over 90mins. He will naturally get tired. Look at Thiago Motta's goal, he just cantered past both of these two. Why? My theory is because of the short term fatigue that comes with having to sprint back.

This wouldn't be a problem if we had a proper DM instead of Pirlo. 3-5 years ago, Pirlo would be fine to cover because he was younger, fitter, and quicker. There was an incident in the first half where he tracked Zanetti to our goal line and tackled for the corner. He used to do that a lot 3-5 years ago, meaning his position in front of the defence was sustainable from a defensive point of view. He doesn't do that anymore - that incident was the only time he did in the match - and so his position there is no longer sustainable.

Therefore, we have to adapt. We can't expect our players to perform the same roles they did when they were 5 years younger. Now we need a proper DM in front of the defence. That way, we have a proper defensively minded individual who can cover and make tackles (along with Gattuso, who does this well anyway). Jankulovski knows there is greater security behind him, and Pirlo can use his talents further up the pitch.

Look at last season. Pirlo was out from September-December. He missed 14 games. What did Ancelotti do? With no Pirlo replacement in the squad, he used Flamini (and sometimes Gattuso) in front of the defence. What happened? We didn't lose any of those 14 games. And we won 12. Those results speak for themselves as far as I am concerned.

Soldier said:

Exactly. Very True. Flamini would do a great job in Pirlo's place, but we would miss his speed on the wings.

Click to expand...

Flamini doesn't really play on the wing. He is more to the left, but the proper width is provided by the full-backs. In any case, yes we would miss his pace. But we gain Pirlo, who has far more attacking talent, further up the field.

Milano84 said:

flamini has 1/5th the passing range of pirlo, flamini is best in a running role. He is our only regular midfielder w/ high work rate. WHY move him to a position that sits deep?

Click to expand...

True, he doesn't have Pirlo's passing. But read my post on the explanation on why we should move him deeper.

I see your point and its an interesting one. When we were thinking of playing a 4-3-3 i thought best way to do it was 4-1-2-2-1 with flamini/gattuso behind pirlo and seedorf. It might still be TBH.

However this was all predicated, in my mind, on having capable fb's of running up and back all game. We now lack that.

Motta's first goal did come from left, and flamini shares the blame, but to be fair, silva did an awful job on milito who had waaay too much time on the ball in the top of the box (if ronnie had that same time we might have mounted an attack). And Jankulovski got COMPLETELY destroyed. Moving flamini to pirlos position wont really stop those attacks from coming wide thru the fullbacks. If anything it might get worse.

Flamini's fitness levels r by far the highest of the team and because of that he is best suited to play the side CM roles, he can run for days and proven it. He needs to get smarter like ambrosini and gattuso (well sometimeS) and not chase every worthless ball, but in many ways he's a breathe of fresh air.

ON Pirlos defensive workrate? He IMO worked harder than anyone in midfield against inter, but inter r too big and bullied him. He got knocked down and fouled more than anyone. Again, i dunno which of our mids aside from ambrosini are capable of dealing with this though.... flamini is small, harder but still small and we've seen him overpowered. Gattuso lost his head. Ambrosini would have been only players physical enough to stand up. Its y i said he should start.

As for soldiers point on short passes.... if you look at it, the side CM role makes alot more short passes because they are a halfway distance from defense to attack. Pirlos position is 1 who needs to show largr range of passing to go out wide and forward from DM. You see the improvement in pirlo's passing because of flamini alone running. Adding more players with high work rate will only make him look better.

I just think from a tactical point of view, it makes zero sense to put our most active midfielder in a position of such tactical positioning and little movement. I'd prefer ambrosini to flamini there.... put ambro deep and move pirlo and flams higher up. or take pirlo out for seedorf. I dunno, but i just cant get on board with moving flamini unless we add more active midfielders. We'll be too static

Milano84 said:

I see your point and its an interesting one. When we were thinking of playing a 4-3-3 i thought best way to do it was 4-1-2-2-1 with flamini/gattuso behind pirlo and seedorf. It might still be TBH.

However this was all predicated, in my mind, on having capable fb's of running up and back all game. We now lack that.

Motta's first goal did come from left, and flamini shares the blame, but to be fair, silva did an awful job on milito who had waaay too much time on the ball in the top of the box (if ronnie had that same time we might have mounted an attack). And Jankulovski got COMPLETELY destroyed. Moving flamini to pirlos position wont really stop those attacks from coming wide thru the fullbacks. If anything it might get worse.

Click to expand...

But what it will do is give more cover. Compare Milan to the other teams who play 4-3-1-2. Let's use Juventus and Inter. None of them use a deep-lying playmaker - they use proper defensive midfielders in Felipe Melo and Esteban Cambiasso respectively.

As I say, if Pirlo was 4 years younger, we'd be fine. But he can't perform the same role anymore, so we have to adapt. Just like Maldini couldn't play full-back as he got older, he had to adapt because of his age. This is a similar example.

Milano84 said:

ON Pirlos defensive workrate? He IMO worked harder than anyone in midfield against inter, but inter r too big and bullied him. He got knocked down and fouled more than anyone. Again, i dunno which of our mids aside from ambrosini are capable of dealing with this though.... flamini is small, harder but still small and we've seen him overpowered. Gattuso lost his head. Ambrosini would have been only players physical enough to stand up. Its y i said he should start.

Click to expand...

It's not his workrate. He's a hard worker. But he's not capable of getting through this work anymore. Ageing naturally decreases fitness (on a separate, but related point - is it me or do our players look like they aren't as fit as they should be?), and Pirlo is suffering from that. A natural DM wouldn't be bullied by Inter, and would be more adept at getting through the work. Especially Flamini.

And you say they're big - Thiago Motta is the only one above 6ft, so Im not sure I buy that.

Milano84 said:

I just think from a tactical point of view, it makes zero sense to put our most active midfielder in a position of such tactical positioning and little movement. I'd prefer ambrosini to flamini there.... put ambro deep and move pirlo and flams higher up. or take pirlo out for seedorf. I dunno, but i just cant get on board with moving flamini unless we add more active midfielders. We'll be too static

Click to expand...

I think this is the problem at the moment. Too many people are stuck in the mindset of "we need to have Pirlo deep otherwise we lose the passing". Leonardo seems stuck in this, too. The fact is, we don't need Pirlo there. As I said earlier, look at the other teams playing 4-3-1-2, they don't have a deep-lying playmaker. Having a Pirlo in front of the defence is not essential for this system to work. Inter won the league without a Pirlo last year, and the two teams who look set to compete for lo Scudetto won't have one this year.

Even Lippi has looked at using Pirlo elsewhere. He recognises that it is not essential. Pirlo may not be as quick as Flamini, but movement isn't just about running fast. I get the impression you're linking our midfield being static with lack of pace, and that isn't the case. Clever movement>>>>>running quickly.

Astafjevs said:

But what it will do is give more cover. Compare Milan to the other teams who play 4-3-1-2. Let's use Juventus and Inter. None of them use a deep-lying playmaker - they use proper defensive midfielders in Felipe Melo and Esteban Cambiasso respectively.

As I say, if Pirlo was 4 years younger, we'd be fine. But he can't perform the same role anymore, so we have to adapt. Just like Maldini couldn't play full-back as he got older, he had to adapt because of his age. This is a similar example.

Click to expand...

True. Still we add competitant FBs and gattuso doesnt go insane and we arent discussing this as much

It's not his workrate. He's a hard worker. But he's not capable of getting through this work anymore. Ageing naturally decreases fitness (on a separate, but related point - is it me or do our players look like they aren't as fit as they should be?), and Pirlo is suffering from that. A natural DM wouldn't be bullied by Inter, and would be more adept at getting through the work. Especially Flamini.

And you say they're big - Thiago Motta is the only one above 6ft, so Im not sure I buy that.

Click to expand...

Perhaps i should say physical and strong over BIG. Stankovic is strong, Zanetti is a tank, motta obviously, Eto'o is strong, maicon obviously, chivu is a dirty bastard. They had 2 players who arent what i'd call physical players... sneijder and milito, and sjeijder though short is very strong on the ball... Look at inter, physically they are just WAY more imposing than us

I think this is the problem at the moment. Too many people are stuck in the mindset of "we need to have Pirlo deep otherwise we lose the passing". Leonardo seems stuck in this, too. The fact is, we don't need Pirlo there. As I said earlier, look at the other teams playing 4-3-1-2, they don't have a deep-lying playmaker. Having a Pirlo in front of the defence is not essential for this system to work. Inter won the league without a Pirlo last year, and the two teams who look set to compete for lo Scudetto won't have one this year.

Click to expand...

I dont think we do, i just think our team lacks other components to move him elsewhere. We lack width moving pirlo to side will NOT help that.

Even Lippi has looked at using Pirlo elsewhere. He recognises that it is not essential. Pirlo may not be as quick as Flamini, but movement isn't just about running fast. I get the impression you're linking our midfield being static with lack of pace, and that isn't the case. Clever movement>>>>>running quickly.

Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

No i'm not. But pirlo is a player i want with the ball AT his feet deciding where to go as opposed to moving off ball. The problem is ronaldinho. We could switch to a 4-4-2 w/ abate and janku as wingers and pirlo and DM we'd be fine. We could move the team many ways to get more out of pirlo, but i dont see the personnel. Perhaps we should just drop him? But it's a waste of our most talented midfielder.

Milano84 said:

I dont think we do, i just think our team lacks other components to move him elsewhere. We lack width moving pirlo to side will NOT help that.

Click to expand...

A 4-3-1-2 will always lack width. Whether it is Flamini or Pirlo in a LCM position, we will still lack width. Neither of those two players give us that. It is the full-backs in this system that will play wide.

Milano84 said:

No i'm not. But pirlo is a player i want with the ball AT his feet deciding where to go as opposed to moving off ball. The problem is ronaldinho. We could switch to a 4-4-2 w/ abate and janku as wingers and pirlo and DM we'd be fine. We could move the team many ways to get more out of pirlo, but i dont see the personnel. Perhaps we should just drop him? But it's a waste of our most talented midfielder.

Click to expand...

Pirlo will get the ball at his feet, except this way he will be further up the field where he can make the difference, instead of in front of his own goal where he has to give it to other players to make the difference - and at the moment we only have two in Ronaldinho and Pato.

I don't really see what personnel you're looking for in order for Pirlo to move to where Flamini is currently playing? What players would allow this to happen?

Astafjevs said:

A 4-3-1-2 will always lack width. Whether it is Flamini or Pirlo in a LCM position, we will still lack width. Neither of those two players give us that. It is the full-backs in this system that will play wide.



Pirlo will get the ball at his feet, except this way he will be further up the field where he can make the difference, instead of in front of his own goal where he has to give it to other players to make the difference - and at the moment we only have two in Ronaldinho and Pato.

I don't really see what personnel you're looking for in order for Pirlo to move to where Flamini is currently playing? What players would allow this to happen?

Click to expand...

i think it leaves us unbalanced.... ball would always be on pirlos side. gattuso or ambro on right wont start an attack.

I agree with you there, but it is no different to what is happening at the moment. Pirlo always starts our attacks, but he's deeper and right in the centre. Teams have worked us out now, it's why he is not as effective.

with our current squad this is our best chance IMO

-boriello--hunter--pato-
-Ambrosini--Pirlo--Gattuso-
-Flamini--Silva--Nesta--Abate-
storari

Borriello on the left? Flamini and Abate as full-backs? That would be absolutely disastrous.

imho pirlo's style of game and passing aren't suited for us/nobody anymore.
he shouldn't start anymore.

MassterMark said:

imho pirlo's style of game and passing aren't suited for us/nobody anymore.
he shouldn't start anymore.

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but you're an idiot so whatever

Milano84 said:

but you're an idiot so whatever

Click to expand...

imho would seedorf do better job than him.... but anyway, what job did pirlo do?