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View Poll Results: Who was a better striker
Ronaldo 1 11.11%
Marco Van Basten 5 55.56%
They were both equally good since Marco wasn't that fast and Ronaldo couldn't head a beach ball 3 33.33%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-04-2008, 00:09   #121
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^^ Well, same could be said of Ronaldo's Brazilian teammates vs Gullit, Rijkaard + Koemann ... thats about it. Besides, Madrid was filled with stars in 03. And ... if you watched late 80s Milan, you'd know that we wouldn't have conquered Europe without MVB.

PS. Didn't Sachi's boys also fail to win the Scudetto the two consecutive seasons they were Kings of Europe? Interesting ...


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Old 02-04-2008, 00:37   #122
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Again, despite the teammates for Brazil, they would never have won the wc without Ronaldo. He was THE most important player in that campaign. And I think you overrate how good Brazil was in Japan/Korea. They weren't really considered top favourites (those were England, France and Argentina), they had some pretty semi decent players that weren't exactly consisting what you call a star studded lineup - Kleberson, Gilberto, Edmilson, Juninho Paulista... Not bad players, but not really great as well. Ronaldinho was still too raw and Brazil were bascially Rivaldo and Ronaldo to whom there have been casted major doubts whether he can still cut it. He responded in a spectacular fashion, and that WC is as emotional story as it gets when it comes to him, since you referred to me being unable to grasp the emotions that represented Milan's games with MVB.

And that Holland lineup was not less impressive at the time, it was strong in every position on the pitch, unlike Ronaldo's Madrid, who were eliminated three years in a row because of defense being virtually the weakest in Europe. In 2003 Ronaldo had major part until the semis with Juve when he was injured prior to the rematch in Turin (still he entered as a sub and won a penalty for Real which if Figo didnt miss they would have gotten to the final) The next two years Madrid were also punished by their defensive crappiness despite Ronaldo's efforts.


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Old 02-04-2008, 06:48   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
PS. Didn't Sachi's boys also fail to win the Scudetto the two consecutive seasons they were Kings of Europe? Interesting ...
Indeed. They were in 3rd and 2nd place in 89 and 90 respectively with Inter and Napoli winning it. But in 90 we could say Napoli had a favor from the ref. Probably the most blatant injustice I've seen in European leagues in the last 20 years.

You could check the Milan History thread for more information about this 1990 scudetto scandal.


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Old 02-04-2008, 07:26   #124
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[edited]

In Summary:
If the Ronaldo fans say: R9 scored more goals in WC
MVB fans say: they were easier since opponents were weak and brazil is strong (despite the fact that France and Argentina were tipped to win it)

If the Ronaldo fans say: Better goal ratio
MVB fans say: R9 always on star studded teams

If the Ronaldo fans say: R9 more fun to watch
MVB fans say: R9 fans know nothing about football

If the Ronaldo fans say: 3 WOPY
MVB fans say: WOPY = 0

If the Ronaldo fans say: 2 WC medals
MVB fans say: 0 CL (despite neither Pele nor Maradonna having one)


Essentially the anti ronaldo fans keep disputing the facts' relevance with an opinion. This is bound to perpetuate in circles. However what they fail to recognise is that the Ronaldo fans can do the same with MVB's accomplishments and stats...but they are so over shadowed by Ronaldo's that there is almost no need to.

Another sad omission is that Zidane and Ronaldo both led their teams to finals but lost these.....in the other cases Rivaldo imho was the player of the tournament in '02 and France didn't get to the finals via Zidane alone in '98. Ronaldo however took them to the final.

All the talk of MVB's class I remember clearly once the commentator for the '02 Brazil game saying that between Ronaldo and Rivaldo there were only two healthy knees.....Brazil had just barely made it in qualification....Ronaldo played in none of these and his first game was actually his first WC game......imagine how convinced Scolari had to be of his class to pick him ahead of other more fit strikers....most notably Romario.

As for the silly "stats aren't all argument.... please I mean Mario Jardel, Wesley Sonck and Larsson [edited] These players were never considered were they?? So obviously stats aren't all...however they ARE important when comparisons are close.

Last edited by Italian Tsar; 04-04-2008 at 17:27.
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Old 02-04-2008, 18:03   #125
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[edited] while Ronaldo maybe the better player in domestic leagues and International competitions, his European Club Competition record is rather embarrassing compared to Inzaghi's. So then ... even using stats, nothing's certain ... I thought that was clear.

And lemme tell you why I dont love him ... first, I think its safe to say he's been a huge flop at Milan ... even bigger than Gila, IMO. Totally useless + the biggest liability to the club I love ... Second, its kinda obvious he's not interested in football or the Milan cause. Instead, he's as selfish as they get ... only interested in making as much money as he can before saving us the embarrassment and calling it quits. I say this because of what Emdmilson said in reference to Ronaldinho ... and bringing up a similarity to how his behavior (then) was similar to Ronaldo's when at Madrid ... which, from the looks of things, hasn't changed what with his Milano escapes with alcoholic buddy Adriano being photographed ...

Anyway, thats beside the point. As a player then, we have to compare them on the pitch ... and to me, like I said, MVB was the more complete + deadlier striker and I wouldn't trade him for anyone else ... so it isn't only Ronaldo ...

@ gaizka22 : I have read about the 90 Scudetto scandal, but not in much detail. I'll try and look it up where suggested. I have the Milan - Napoli game from that season ... MVB scored, I think ... + set up the other. He also set up young Paolo Maldini, whose shot was saved + MVB was just beaten to the rebound. A. Maradona was invisible.


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Last edited by Italian Tsar; 04-04-2008 at 17:28.
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Old 02-04-2008, 21:55   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
^^ Well, you aren't any different. Stats are a good point for Ronaldo, but ridiculous for Pippo ... All I'm saying is that its hard to be consistent on these matters, and hence, while being a fact, stats don't quite tell the whole story. It really would have been interesting to see that stats thread now, but I dont think it has been updated. Surely, there would be some underpeformers with good stats and some good performers with poor stats.

There's no denying the WC > CL. The biggest tournament in football is the FIFA World Cup. But can one say Ronaldo is better than MVB because he won the WC? I just think both MVB and Ronaldo had enough time at top clubs, and the top club competition is the UCL ... and that the fact that MVB was so dominant in it unlike Ronaldo should say something.

I just wanted to state an opinion. An opinion that club football sees teams with more cohesive play because of the more time spent together. Didn't want to bring a whole WC vs CL argument because thats a given.
Where did I say that Ronaldo is better coz he has better stats ?
I just said that it’s a bonus 4 who he has better stats , just a bonus.
I don’t have a problem with ppl considering MVB better but I have a problem with u acting like its stupid 2 think Ronaldo was better specially when u didn’t watch much of MVB.

Regardless of how u wanna twist it Ronaldo have better stats than MVB & even if his Cl stats aren’t top but they r far better than MVB’s WC record that isn’t less than a disgrace.
So while Ronaldo’s stat in CL r good u notice that MVB’s stat in WC r very weak.

I watched both & Ronaldo is better but I have no problem with ppl considering MVB better coz its debatable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
And lemme tell you why I dont love him ... first, I think its safe to say he's been a huge flop at Milan ... even bigger than Gila, IMO. Totally useless + the biggest liability to the club I love ... Second, its kinda obvious he's not interested in football or the Milan cause. Instead, he's as selfish as they get ... only interested in making as much money as he can before saving us the embarrassment and calling it quits. I say this because of what Emdmilson said in reference to Ronaldinho ... and bringing up a similarity to how his behavior (then) was similar to Ronaldo's when at Madrid ... which, from the looks of things, hasn't changed what with his Milano escapes with alcoholic buddy Adriano being photographed ...
A flop ?
No1 but the stupidity triad thought Ronaldo would do better.
U , me + most of ppl on this forum thought Ronaldo wont b able 2 do much considering he will b injured.
What he did was much better than the expected & many ppl admitted that including u



Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
Anyway, thats beside the point. As a player then, we have to compare them on the pitch ... and to me, like I said, MVB was the more complete + deadlier striker and I wouldn't trade him for anyone else ... so it isn't only Ronaldo ...
I watched enough of both of em 2 say that Ronaldo is more complete.
He is faster , better skills , stronger legs , ability 2 carry the team.
MVB had better vision but Ronaldo’s wasn’t bad with accurate passing.
The only aspect where MVB was much better = Arial skills.


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Old 03-04-2008, 00:45   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
[edited] while Ronaldo maybe the better player in domestic leagues and International competitions, his European Club Competition record is rather embarrassing compared to Inzaghi's. So then ... even using stats, nothing's certain ... I thought that was clear
[edited] Ronaldo's CL scoring record can't be embarrasing because he simply played less. Maradonna played a lot less in the CL.....and Pele never played on to your next ridiculous point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
And lemme tell you why I dont love him ... first, I think its safe to say he's been a huge flop at Milan ... even bigger than Gila, IMO. Totally useless + the biggest liability to the club I love ... Second, its kinda obvious he's not interested in football or the Milan cause. Instead, he's as selfish as they get ... only interested in making as much money as he can before saving us the embarrassment and calling it quits. I say this because of what Emdmilson said in reference to Ronaldinho ... and bringing up a similarity to how his behavior (then) was similar to Ronaldo's when at Madrid ... which, from the looks of things, hasn't changed what with his Milano escapes with alcoholic buddy Adriano being photographed
[edited]

...if he had no love for the game why:
1) join a struggling Milan for less pay than in USA/ Quatar?
2) help with his transfer fee
3) rack up a bunch of assists...(not bad for a selfish player huh?)
4) PLAY HURT WITH US

Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
Anyway, thats beside the point. As a player then, we have to compare them on the pitch ... and to me, like I said, MVB was the more complete + deadlier striker and I wouldn't trade him for anyone else ... so it isn't only Ronaldo ...
More deadly post a link to ONE video where MVB took on an entire team. Post ONE clip of Van Basten raping a legendary defender like Maldini.
Post ONE clip or article of MVB being the record goalscorer in ANY major tournament. You can't even give ONE.


BTW no disrespect to the Milan legend...but MVB is viewed as second to Cryuff to many dutch people AND football pundits

Last edited by Italian Tsar; 04-04-2008 at 17:31.
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Old 03-04-2008, 06:01   #128
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I was going to stay out of this, as I don't really know what this thread is about. Ronaldo or Van Basten, who is better. May I ask you at what? As for their ability, at their best they both deserve the very highest marks, they are both considered great and rightfully so. My personal opinion is the following.

They are very different in both their style of play as well as their ability. Both of them made the best of what was given to them by nature and used it to perfection. While Ronaldo was smaller, faster, more agile, Van Basten was bigger, stronger and more stable. Ronaldo was maybe better at weaving through defenders, but Van Basten had near perfect accuracy from any position.

Ronaldo was best at creating an easy chance (be it for himself or teammate) and scoring an easy goal with deadly accuracy. Van Basten wasn't that good at making chances for himself, but instead made everytime he got the ball a chance.

I haven't any recollection of watching Van Basten live, but I've seen many games as my father (a Milan fan) has many games on VCR and he used to show me those when I was a kid (and while the VCR still worked). It was the time when Milan were doing pretty bad and seeing that team was like unreal to me, it was very impressive. I don't know what kind of impression will those games leave now on me, but I still have many classic Milan goals on my iPod which I watch when I'm bored or sad over a defeat. I admire Van Basten, and for me he is probably the best striker I've ever seen play. And while most of my friends went crazy over Ronaldo at the 98 world cup, I used that fact to trade his sticker in the Pannini album for 10 stickers , and didn't really like him (being an Inter player) and a Brazilian (being an Italia fan). So, to say the truth, in terms of ability I can't say who's better, but in terms of respect and well, maybe love I'm all for Van Basten. After all, my real name is Marko and well... I'm subjective


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Old 03-04-2008, 23:30   #129
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Listen ... I don't know what you guys are upto. The fact that Ronaldo's stats in European Club Competitions is much lower than loads of other footballers does not mean to say the others are better than him. The same should apply to MVB's WC record. So, the only CONSISTENT conclusion we can make is that stats don't tell the whole story ... and therefore shouldn't turn the tie in any player's favor. So, stats have to be put out of the equation ... not a bonus, not a downside.

Ronaldo performed better than expected? No offense mate, but speak for yourself. If victories against Cagliari and Siena is better than expected, then your expectations are frankly low. Top it off, those performances counted for jack in the long run with Inzaghi's brace doing what he did and more. No ... to me, as the leading striker at Milan (when he arrived), he was and is an absolute flop. The definition of the word. In fact, if there's one thing the media's getting right, its their references to Ranaldo ... 'crocked'. Anyway, whats done is done ... but, I just pray and hope that some little common sense is still left in our management, and that the first liability out this summer is our biggest one ... FenomeNO!

To summarize, your arguments have not, in the least bit, altered my opinion ... or even, made me re-think the smallest of bits. You say I haven't watched enough of MVB ... or that his style of play created more chances ... while I say it didn't, and your explanations don't challenge my thought. You may convince others, but its simply straightforward for me ... MVB > Ronaldo. Period.


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Old 04-04-2008, 04:34   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
Listen ... I don't know what you guys are upto. The fact that Ronaldo's stats in European Club Competitions is much lower than loads of other footballers does not mean to say the others are better than him. The same should apply to MVB's WC record. So, the only CONSISTENT conclusion we can make is that stats don't tell the whole story ... and therefore shouldn't turn the tie in any player's favor. So, stats have to be put out of the equation ... not a bonus, not a downside
Stats in isolation should never be used as the only barometer in ANY discussion. However keep in mind that they are BOTH strikers. Hence total number of goals scored and goal scoring ratios are almost a defining charracteristic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
Ronaldo performed better than expected? No offense mate, but speak for yourself. If victories against Cagliari and Siena is better than expected, then your expectations are frankly low. Top it off, those performances counted for jack in the long run with Inzaghi's brace doing what he did and more. No ... to me, as the leading striker at Milan (when he arrived), he was and is an absolute flop. The definition of the word. In fact, if there's one thing the media's getting right, its their references to Ranaldo ... 'crocked'. Anyway, whats done is done ... but, I just pray and hope that some little common sense is still left in our management, and that the first liability out this summer is our biggest one ... FenomeNO!
How about starting a petition Funny how Milan looked like we actually had an attack when he played for us...my my....I guess he was so shitty that journalists didn't bother to coin the term KA-Pa-Ro after one match huh?



Anyway Ronaldo's and MVB's strikerates aren't THAT different .....in the manner that you claim that one is godlike and the other is pathetic....given Ronaldo's complete destruction of the UEFA Cup and the fact that he had MUCH fewer appearances....suddenly your argument begins to evaporate.
Check it out for yourself..
http://euro.futbal.org/EC1.scorers.php

Last edited by Italian Tsar; 04-04-2008 at 17:31.
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Old 04-04-2008, 16:30   #131
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I read the whole thread and there have been some very illuminating discussions. But this bickering must stop.

I haven't seen MVB play, so I can't pass judgment on him; But fascinating topic. If only we had some more people who've seen both play. Not on the tape, mind you. IMO, you can learn only so much from tapes. You can't recreate a certain era, and its own scent. You should've lived through it.

I am editing or deleting all the OT.


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Last edited by Italian Tsar; 04-04-2008 at 16:37.
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Old 04-04-2008, 16:36   #132
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One more thing. Drucurl, please stop using that "rape" phrase anymore. It's not funny anymore and it's insensitive.


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Old 05-04-2008, 05:20   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Italian Tsar
One more thing. Drucurl, please stop using that "rape" phrase anymore. It's not funny anymore and it's insensitive.
Wow what are you going to do? Use your super(mod) powers and ban me
fine. The phrase is used by most of us and any jackass knows that it has nothing to do with literal rape. Funny how you let others get away with shit but you'd single out me. Do whatever you want


P.S. I hope I haven't offended you in anyway regards the rape thing. But to me it looks like you are trying to get sympathy mileage from the forum by your request. If I offended anyone I am truly and deeply sorry.
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Old 09-04-2008, 13:12   #134
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Originally Posted by drucurl
Wow what are you going to do? Use your super(mod) powers and ban me
fine. The phrase is used by most of us and any jackass knows that it has nothing to do with literal rape. Funny how you let others get away with shit but you'd single out me. Do whatever you want
I am not a supermod, dude, just an ordinary mod;I can't ban you.

As far as I can see, you're the one who started it, so there. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, of course.

Quote:
P.S. I hope I haven't offended you in anyway regards the rape thing. But to me it looks like you are trying to get sympathy mileage from the forum by your request. If I offended anyone I am truly and deeply sorry.
I don't need to gather sympathy, birdbrain. I am already a mod.


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Old 09-04-2008, 13:45   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drucurl
More deadly post a link to ONE video where MVB took on an entire team. Post ONE clip of Van Basten raping a legendary defender like Maldini.
In terms of clip, I must admit that there are more clips of Ronaldo than of MvB, but I guess you all agree that this is because not much posted out there. You go to youtube or any search engine and they will post more or less the same clips (his bicycle kick with Ajax, goal @Cup winners Cup final, goal vs USSR, goals vs IFK Gothenborg). You search Ronaldo clips, you have a wide variety of option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drucurl
BTW no disrespect to the Milan legend...but MVB is viewed as second to Cryuff to many dutch people AND football pundits
True about this, but in all fairness, it was because MvB never reached his highest potential. In 92, he was nearing that level and even Cruyff admitted this but injury cut him short. That for me is one of the biggest loss in soccer. I mean name any great player and we can see how he developed, peaked and then declined.

And when it comes to Cruyff vs MvB, it was the case of the master vs prodigy MvB has too much respect towards Cruyff.


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Old 09-04-2008, 13:47   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drucurl
But to me it looks like you are trying to get sympathy mileage from the forum by your request
What sympathy mileage?


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Old 09-04-2008, 14:01   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaizka22
What sympathy mileage?
He is trying to appear altruistic and sensitive by condemning my seemingly flippant use of the term 'rape' . That's all well and good but many of us use the "we will rape teamX so hard they'll be like wtf, why did you rape us so hard?" - slogan.....It's far too common for anyone to take offence at it and it's certainly unfair to single out ONE user for using it.

@Italian Tsar
The catchphrase came from Dino Diavolo in the Milan vs Celtic thread. I couldn't be assed to post a link to someone who accuses first then asks questions later. Since then a bunch of us have taken it up....similar to the "man above me" and "message my kobe steak" lines. I didn't come up with it. You ARE wrong.
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Old 09-04-2008, 14:05   #138
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Man above me:

You forgot the Rocky Jonur and the Bald and Faset Rocchi.


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Old 09-04-2008, 14:10   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaizka22
True about this, but in all fairness, it was because MvB never reached his highest potential. In 92, he was nearing that level and even Cruyff admitted this but injury cut him short. That for me is one of the biggest loss in soccer. I mean name any great player and we can see how he developed, peaked and then declined.

And when it comes to Cruyff vs MvB, it was the case of the master vs prodigy MvB has too much respect towards Cruyff.
So he never fulfilled his true potential but he's better than Cryuff Ronaldo fulfilled his potential in terms of becoming the most unstoppable attacker in the world. He scored at will. At one point he even looked for more challengeing goals to score because they came too easily He didn't stay at his peak for long due to injuries and poor work ethic and a certain Spanish Bakery but he still accomplished feats comparable to the alltime greats like Pele Maradonna Romario Cryuff etc. If you are standing by the above argument Ronaldo has won because it would be like saying Messi is better than Kaka because Messi is approaching Maradonna's level. One quick Question Gazkia (I always like learning from you ) please tell me your top ten alltime players....and a brief explanantion...Your take on these matters is highly valued. Always great to read your posts.
Thanks
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Old 09-04-2008, 14:46   #140
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Sorry I mis read, I thought it was about Ronaldo not reaching his full potential. (I'm tired )

but still MvB scored over 300 goals in just over 400 games so I'll say that was reaching his potential even if his career was cut short. Plus he was in/about to hit his prime so he wouldn't of got that much better anyway

For Ronaldo

I say scoring 350 goals in just over alittle more than 500 games is reaching your full potential. After all he did miss about 3 & half seasons of his career to injury how many more goals would he of had

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