Ronaldo OR Van Basten

Forza Milan...

Ronaldo9 said:

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Well, people have brought in the names of Maradona and other midfielders ... so why not the best player of Ronaldo's generation - Zidane? So yeah ... he got red carded and couldn't play a game in '98, but he still led his team to the World Cup and Ronaldo didn't. In fact its surprising how some brush aside the valid point I brought up (as hatred) stating that Germany in '02 were in fact without Ballack. And in Brazil's only other somewhat difficult match, it was Rivaldo and Ronaldinho who saved Brazil's ass against the English. Not to mention other top contenders being harshly eliminated as the co-hosts surprisingly progressed, raising a few eyebrows. In this case, there's no question that Fatso led Brazil to the WC, but in the other, Zidane did nothing ... ridiculous!

Perhaps there must be a reason why the FIFA panel voted Zidane as WPOY 98 and not Fatso. Perhaps there is also a reason why, in 02, France looked a shadow of themselves without the magician ... so much, they had that generation of French stars written off only to be surprised in 06 where, if you noticed, Zizzou was more of a coach than the idiot Dominech who's job was to watch down the sidelines as Zizzou and Vieira made the calls ...

I'm surprised some think MVB couldn't win games on his own. I cannot disagree with this further even though I myself haven't watched him live. But from the footage I've seen, I can name quite a few ... The game against England I mentioned earlier where the teams were evenly balanced ... and MVB, playing his first game after a 6 month injury, came in and made the difference ... and this was a top English side with Barns, Linekar, Adams, etc. He OWNED (take note on usages Fatso9) Adams. The final against the Russians, numerous Milan games, really too many to mention ... he could do what Ronaldo did and some more. He wasn't as fast or your typical Brazilian wizard, but he was quick enough and technically sound ... and his more intelligent game + all-round attributes really set him apart.

zZ[-_-]Zz said:

statistics = facts? so you guys are comparin' goal-scorin' stats or footballin' ability?

do you have stats also for contribution to build up of goals... vital goals... goals/shot... positive contribution in the dressin' room (not the kind where you inspire teammates to turn up late for trainin' stinkin' of alcohol)... how about goals/minutes?

how about havin' stats to prove the quality of teammates both players had? can you judge if van Basten with the Brazilian team can do better than fat boy can do with the Dutch team?

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No I dont , but do u ?
What argument u have that MVB did all that while R9 didn’t ?
It’s a matter of opinion & number of goals + trophies just add a bonus 2 who have it.
R9 have it.

madtherchot said:

I myself haven't watched him live.

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Thank u very much.
He wasn’t a player who can win a game by himself.
Ronaldo was.

Wild said:

Thank u very much.
He wasn’t a player who can win a game by himself.
Ronaldo was.

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Where you at the San Siro? If not, then how could watching full games now be any different?

Voce said:

And i am.... NEW? mayby? Next question i dont get, prob. some sort of insult.
NO it dont, but it doesnt either mean its right, just means IMO that it sucks. you are at least easily angered

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It was some sort of an insult, but not directed to you. There was a sense of humor in the post, and I hope you're not offended, since I am not at all angered.

madtherchot said:

Well, people have brought in the names of Maradona and other midfielders ... so why not the best player of Ronaldo's generation - Zidane? So yeah ... he got red carded and couldn't play a game in '98, but he still led his team to the World Cup and Ronaldo didn't. In fact its surprising how some brush aside the valid point I brought up (as hatred) stating that Germany in '02 were in fact without Ballack. And in Brazil's only other somewhat difficult match, it was Rivaldo and Ronaldinho who saved Brazil's ass against the English. Not to mention other top contenders being harshly eliminated as the co-hosts surprisingly progressed, raising a few eyebrows. In this case, there's no question that Fatso led Brazil to the WC, but in the other, Zidane did nothing ... ridiculous!

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And who saved France ass when Zidane was red carded , Zidane also ?
France reached the final without Zidane.
That’s tell u a bit how France was all Zidane

Zidane , MVB , Ronaldo all r legends + almost equal.
I don’t have any problem in arguing about who is better coz its debatable.
But 4 u 2 act like it’s a done deal that Ronaldo is inferior is a bit silly specially when u haven’t seen MVB play.
Stay humble @ least.

madtherchot said:

Where you at the San Siro? If not, then how could watching full games now be any different?

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U downloaded 200+ FULL games for MVB coz thats how much I watched MVB.
If u did then I will bow 2 ur effort + apologize.

Right then ... I haven't watched him live. All due respect, but ... how does watching a game on TV live differ from a taped one watched later? Apart from the excitement, the game's still the same ... right?

Wild said:

U downloaded 200+ FULL games for MVB coz thats how much I watched MVB.
If u did then I will bow 2 ur effort + apologize.

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Nope I haven't. In fact, much less. But I have the added bonus of comparing the two players side-by-side ... since our opinions on the game may vary from time to time. Besides ... then not many of us will be able to comment or refer to Pele and Jeerzinho, like the glorifying post you quoted. I've a full game of both of them playing together and think Ronaldo's much more zinho than Pele ...

madtherchot said:

Right then ... I haven't watched him live. All due respect, but ... how does watching a game on TV live differ from a taped one watched later? Apart from the excitement, the game's still the same ... right?

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Wild is asking if u've watched 200+ FULL games of Van Basten.

He's saying that he's watched all those + possibly all of Ronaldo's games and has come to the conclusion that Van Basten couldn't win a game by himself.

Meaning he is in a better position to judge.


Edit: Apologies. Didn't see your reply.

madtherchot said:

Right then ... I haven't watched him live. All due respect, but ... how does watching a game on TV live differ from a taped one watched later? Apart from the excitement, the game's still the same ... right?

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Watching 10 games isn’t really like watching 100 games , is it ?
Am sure u watched few full games + many highlight + goals , right ?

R u gonna sit there + tell me that an objective viewer of Ronaldo’s + MVB’s goals will lean 2ward MVB ?
As ZZZ said MVB is a real team player & u can touch that only I u watch full games.

madtherchot said:

Right then ... I haven't watched him live. All due respect, but ... how does watching a game on TV live differ from a taped one watched later? Apart from the excitement, the game's still the same ... right?

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As ZZZZ pointed out earlier, there is always going to be less emphasis on the meaning of some games. In spite of that though, you could still have an objective opinion on mvb's performances, but only on the games that you watch.

I think Wild's point was that MvB's abilities throughout his career would be noticed better by someone that has watched every single game of his, as opposed to watching a few recorded games. You might have watched some of his games, but chances are they are the ones that he did really well in, not his mediocre, and his poor games.
Thos games will provide the complete picture, and even if you have watched some of those, its not going to give you the sort of idea that watching him for 5 years non stop will give.
I tend to agree with him on that point, but since i myself have watched a tiny handful of mvb clips, I'm in no poisition to debate on who was better.

Edit: whoops! i didnt realise i would be the THIRD person to tell you the same thing

madtherchot said:

Nope I haven't. In fact, much less. But I have the added bonus of comparing the two players side-by-side ... since our opinions on the game may vary from time to time. Besides ... then not many of us will be able to comment or refer to Pele and Jeerzinho, like the glorifying post you quoted. I've a full game of both of them playing together and think Ronaldo's much more zinho than Pele ...

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He is much better.
I think that ManU 2008 will kick Brazil 1970 ass so easily.
Am being serious , do u c how the defenders used 2 defend back then ? LOL
Football is becoming much harder & coaches have more influence than players IMO.

Forza Milan...

zZ[-_-]Zz said:

so Gilardino has a WC trophy... so too does Zaccardo & Barzagli... are you tellin' me Gilardino is better than van Basten & Zaccardo/Barzagli are better than Baresi & Maldini?

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I don’t know.
But u claim that Pato did better than Bojan coz he was called 2 the national team + scored 1 goal.
Is Gila the all time best scorer of the world cup ?
Did he score 8 goals in 1 WC ?
Do he have an average of 2 goals / 3 games ?

I never claimed that statistics = everything but I did say that statistics gives bonus 2 who have it , a bonus.
Never claimed that R9 is 4 sure better than MVB but I did said its debatable & it can go both ways easily.

Forza Milan...

zZ[-_-]Zz said:

ok... whatever... after tonight's pissed poor performance... i lost all interest in anythin' else...

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I told u 2 get prepare 4 this season

Well, unlike most, I have had the pleasure to watch full games of MVB's ... and even though maybe selected as Radio said, I've watched more than 20-or-so of his games for club and country. And so ... yes, like my earlier post, I do understand what you mean when you talk of team play ... Like I said, I thought he was the better team player, better passer (had more vision), better in the air, and a better poacher. He is slower but not by much. He had a different style of dribbling, but it was also damn effective. And he also was a hefty lad. So, all in all, the more complete striker and football player, IMO without a doubt.

Radio, what ZZ said is very true ... but in this respect, when comparing player attributes, it is what happens on the pitch that carries all the weight. So, you're comparing who is faster ... who's got a better left foot ... while the emotions + buildup do come into the Athens 07 achievement, it has much less (in fact no) value when comparing attributes on the pitch.

Then ... about statistics swaying the matter ... well, lets just drop this issue since both MVB and Ronaldo are inferior to Pippo Inzaghi. The greatest striker in club football history. Sour one to chew, huh Wild? Take your pick ... you can't have both.

madtherchot said:

Well, unlike most, I have had the pleasure to watch full games of MVB's ... and even though maybe selected as Radio said, I've watched more than 20-or-so of his games for club and country. And so ... yes, like my earlier post, I do understand what you mean when you talk of team play ... Like I said, I thought he was the better team player, better passer (had more vision), better in the air, and a better poacher. He is slower but not by much. He had a different style of dribbling, but it was also damn effective. And he also was a hefty lad. So, all in all, the more complete striker and football player, IMO without a doubt.

Radio, what ZZ said is very true ... but in this respect, when comparing player attributes, it is what happens on the pitch that carries all the weight. So, you're comparing who is faster ... who's got a better left foot ... while the emotions + buildup do come into the Athens 07 achievement, it has much less (in fact no) value when comparing attributes on the pitch.

Then ... about statistics swaying the matter ... well, lets just drop this issue since both MVB and Ronaldo are inferior to Pippo Inzaghi. The greatest striker in club football history. Sour one to chew, huh Wild? Take your pick ... you can't have both.

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Show me the money
Post Pippo's stats.

madtherchot said:

Then ... about statistics swaying the matter ... well, lets just drop this issue since both MVB and Ronaldo are inferior to Pippo Inzaghi. The greatest striker in club football history. Sour one to chew, huh Wild? Take your pick ... you can't have both.

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Lol cmon man Pippo is good but thats a slight overstatement. Even Raul has a better club record than Pippo, in every stat except for european goals scored, but hes about 5 goals behind Pippo at just the age of 30.

madtherchot said:

Well, people have brought in the names of Maradona and other midfielders ... so why not the best player of Ronaldo's generation - Zidane? So yeah ... he got red carded and couldn't play a game in '98, but he still led his team to the World Cup and Ronaldo didn't. In fact its surprising how some brush aside the valid point I brought up (as hatred) stating that Germany in '02 were in fact without Ballack. And in Brazil's only other somewhat difficult match, it was Rivaldo and Ronaldinho who saved Brazil's ass against the English. Not to mention other top contenders being harshly eliminated as the co-hosts surprisingly progressed, raising a few eyebrows. In this case, there's no question that Fatso led Brazil to the WC, but in the other, Zidane did nothing ... ridiculous!

Perhaps there must be a reason why the FIFA panel voted Zidane as WPOY 98 and not Fatso. Perhaps there is also a reason why, in 02, France looked a shadow of themselves without the magician ... so much, they had that generation of French stars written off only to be surprised in 06 where, if you noticed, Zizzou was more of a coach than the idiot Dominech who's job was to watch down the sidelines as Zizzou and Vieira made the calls ...

I'm surprised some think MVB couldn't win games on his own. I cannot disagree with this further even though I myself haven't watched him live. But from the footage I've seen, I can name quite a few ... The game against England I mentioned earlier where the teams were evenly balanced ... and MVB, playing his first game after a 6 month injury, came in and made the difference ... and this was a top English side with Barns, Linekar, Adams, etc. He OWNED (take note on usages Fatso9) Adams. The final against the Russians, numerous Milan games, really too many to mention ... he could do what Ronaldo did and some more. He wasn't as fast or your typical Brazilian wizard, but he was quick enough and technically sound ... and his more intelligent game + all-round attributes really set him apart.

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Yeah, predicting such an unlikely event like Ronaldo getting injured was such a Nostradamus achievement, you must be very proud of yourself. At least I hoped and had faith that he would be somehow fixed by the Milan lab, unlike you who is probably glad he got injured. Good job there, I admit, that is the ultimate test in knowledge of the game, knowing when anybody will get injured. Maybe you should use that ability to help people around the world.

Another proof of your knowledge is labeling Maradona as "a midfielder" and putting him in the same class with Zidane. WTF, I don't need even put effort to own you, you manage to do it to yourself. Nobody said Zidane did nothing to help France win in 1998, but Ronaldo did much more for Brazil in 2002. Fact.

To wrap it up, as I'm tired of arguing with such a biased hater, Ronaldo is ONLY SLIGHTLY better than Van Basten, because he had more flair and because he was more of an inspiration globally with his style, than MVB. Respect to the swan (something that you apparently aren't able to show towards Ron), but Ronaldo had a slightly better and more balanced combination between effectiveness and attractiveness of his game.

Wild said:

Show me the money
Post Pippo's stats.

Click to expand...

radioactivenerd said:

Lol cmon man Pippo is good but thats a slight overstatement. Even Raul has a better club record than Pippo, in every stat except for european goals scored, but hes about 5 goals behind Pippo at just the age of 30.

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I meant to say 'European Club football history' ... as Radio added. According to the stats, in the history of European Club Competitions, Inzaghi is the best striker ever. But that simply isn't true. So the stats point has as much significance as claiming Pippo's numero uno

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Zidane had a poorish tournment in 1998 the only thing that saved him in that World Cup was him scoring those 2 goals in the final. He was sent off in one of the early group games and France struggled to find any sort of form.

And lulz @ why did Fifa give Zizou the world player of the year award instead of Ronaldo, well Zidane won the World Cup & helped Juve win the title in 98, Ronaldo won the UEFA Cup so you tell me who had more success that year with their teams.

The World Player of the Year Award is a joke, the way its voted for is a disgrace and its just typical of Fifa to fukk everything up anyway. Looked how they snubbed Henry on atleast 2 occassion to be World player of the year when he was clearly better than Little Ronaldo one year and when Eto'o & Lampard were where ahead of him in 05. And lets be honest apart from the World Cup in 06 did Cannavaro really deserve to be world player of the year for that year? It all comes down to honours won with your teams.

CountVlad: Well, everyone knows that Fifa's WPOTY is a joke ... but its the first thing that gets shoved in our faces by the usual suspects. That and the world cup scoring record ... But I somehow understand why WC performances are given precedence during WC years. Like Fatso did nothing for his club in 02, but I wont take the award from him. Same with Cannavaro, who was splendid in Germany 06 ... his epic performance against Germany alone is worthy of the award.

Which may sound ridiculous, but this is the biggest tournament in the world. Which is why Fatso's achievement deserves applause ... but so do the people who provided the service for him.

But after the WC, the next biggest football competition is arguably Uefa's Champions' League ... which is where he has failed to make his mark. And its not like he hadn't had the opportunity ... he competed in this competition along side some really big names but failed to deliver. This is probably the competition where the best football is seen ... top teams, with players playing week in - week out, with a lot of chemistry ... The quality of the games is arguably better than those found in the WC. And this is a tournament that MVB dominated quite easily ...

madtherchot said:

^^ A quick learner. Keep it to a sentence and you might actually get to me. But still delusional ... oh, and don't act like you've never called me names ...

CountVlad: Well, everyone knows that Fifa's WPOTY is a joke ... but its the first thing that gets shoved in our faces by the usual suspects. That and the world cup scoring record ... But I somehow understand why WC performances are given precedence during WC years. Like Fatso did nothing for his club in 02, but I wont take the award from him. Same with Cannavaro, who was splendid in Germany 06 ... his epic performance against Germany alone is worthy of the award.

Which may sound ridiculous, but this is the biggest tournament in the world. Which is why Fatso's achievement deserves applause ... but so do the people who provided the service for him.

But after the WC, the next biggest football competition is arguably Uefa's Champions' League ... which is where he has failed to make his mark. And its not like he hadn't had the opportunity ... he competed in this competition along side some really big names but failed to deliver. This is probably the competition where the best football is seen ... top teams, with players playing week in - week out, with a lot of chemistry ... The quality of the games is arguably better than those found in the WC. And this is a tournament that MVB dominated quite easily ...

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I understand that if you win the world cup & you were the best player than you deserve to win it, but I just like consistency on awards given out, Henry being snubbed for 3-4 years when he clearly top 3 player in the world at the times just pisses me off. Plus I don't rate Little Ronaldo at all, fat lazy goofy looking MF'er

In defence to Big Ron he did play well once he got to Real in that 02/03 season so his last 6 months of the year was good. Plus it was a good PR story, I'm sure sponsors had something to do with especially after what they had put him thru to play in the 98 final.

madtherchot said:

^^ A quick learner. Keep it to a sentence and you might actually get to me. But still delusional ... oh, and don't act like you've never called me names ...

CountVlad: Well, everyone knows that Fifa's WPOTY is a joke ... but its the first thing that gets shoved in our faces by the usual suspects. That and the world cup scoring record ... But I somehow understand why WC performances are given precedence during WC years. Like Fatso did nothing for his club in 02, but I wont take the award from him. Same with Cannavaro, who was splendid in Germany 06 ... his epic performance against Germany alone is worthy of the award.

Which may sound ridiculous, but this is the biggest tournament in the world. Which is why Fatso's achievement deserves applause ... but so do the people who provided the service for him.

But after the WC, the next biggest football competition is arguably Uefa's Champions' League ... which is where he has failed to make his mark. And its not like he hadn't had the opportunity ... he competed in this competition along side some really big names but failed to deliver. This is probably the competition where the best football is seen ... top teams, with players playing week in - week out, with a lot of chemistry ... The quality of the games is arguably better than those found in the WC. And this is a tournament that MVB dominated quite easily ...

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Nice argument there.
U decide which tournament suit ur argument & then consider it a fact + build ur theory.
And according 2 ur opinion Maradona + Pele = shit coz they didn’t win the CL.

Well that’s u , me on the other hand I wanna consider the Spanish cup as the benchmark so Ronaldo is better than MVB coz he won the Spanish cup

Its good that experts doesn’t wait 4 u + me 2 decide the benchmark & they decided that WC > CL.

^^ Well, you aren't any different. Stats are a good point for Ronaldo, but ridiculous for Pippo ... All I'm saying is that its hard to be consistent on these matters, and hence, while being a fact, stats don't quite tell the whole story. It really would have been interesting to see that stats thread now, but I dont think it has been updated. Surely, there would be some underpeformers with good stats and some good performers with poor stats.

There's no denying the WC > CL. The biggest tournament in football is the FIFA World Cup. But can one say Ronaldo is better than MVB because he won the WC? I just think both MVB and Ronaldo had enough time at top clubs, and the top club competition is the UCL ... and that the fact that MVB was so dominant in it unlike Ronaldo should say something.

I just wanted to state an opinion. An opinion that club football sees teams with more cohesive play because of the more time spent together. Didn't want to bring a whole WC vs CL argument because thats a given.

I think its safe to say that Van Basten's Milan was a much stronger team than Ronaldo's Madrid or Inter with whom he played in the CL. Fact is that Ronaldo, by play of fate, in his prime years with Barca and Inter didn't participate in the CL, but led both of them to the other respective European Cups they were in.