AC Milan Tactics

nicgolfstar · Nov 17, 2013

Dominate said:
Indeed

This is my problem, even though im still not 100% sure why it doesn't work, no manager has ever really used a 4231 in Serie A. Inter used in the Champions League but as you said, often it was a 3 man midfield

There are clearly reasons for this, that more football intelligent people like managers don't use it

Don't get the hopes up of seeing a 4231 in Serie A, I don't know if its just the fact that the 2 holding mids are the only midfielders or what. Leaves holes through the channels that like to be attacked in Serie A?

Whatever it is there must be a reason why it isn't used and I trust the managers when it comes to such things

From the top Teams Napoli is using it.

Goodfella · Nov 17, 2013

Dominate said:
Indeed

This is my problem, even though im still not 100% sure why it doesn't work, no manager has ever really used a 4231 in Serie A. Inter used in the Champions League but as you said, often it was a 3 man midfield

There are clearly reasons for this, that more football intelligent people like managers don't use it

Don't get the hopes up of seeing a 4231 in Serie A, I don't know if its just the fact that the 2 holding mids are the only midfielders or what. Leaves holes through the channels that like to be attacked in Serie A?

Whatever it is there must be a reason why it isn't used and I trust the managers when it comes to such things

For 38 league games, 4-2-3-1 wasn't the right main formation for Inter's squad. Especially with Motta's injuries. They could play it in big games, using the same tactics as in UCL, which they also did in some Serie A big games.
But they didn't have proper, dependable quality wingers, and with Motta always injured or unfit, they tried Zanetti, a past it Vieira and Stankovic as double pivot..
Still, they won most games where they started with a 4-2-3-1 - although not convincingly - and Mourinho used it quite frequently at the end.

Why 4-2-3-1 is rare in Serie A?

This is partly due to the fact what's 4-2-3-1 in Germany or England may not be 4-2-3-1 in Italy. Instead it's often called 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1, with a secunda punta.

Bayern's lineup with Müller behind the CF is called 4-2-3-1, while Sacchi's Milan's lineup with Gullit behind Van Basten is called 4-4-2, even though Müller isn't more midfielder than Gullit and certainly not more than Savicevic, who took over from Gullit..

A bunch of Serie A teams have used 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2 over the years, although it's rare now.

But the biggest reason why 4-2-3-1 still isn't popular in Serie A in 2013 is imo because Italian clubs, unlike EPL/BL/LL clubs, don't buy or grow players with 4-2-3-1 in mind. Except Benitez' Napoli. And they succeeded.
They've taken 22 points out of maximum 24 points against the sides that distinguish Serie A from other leagues - the mid and bottom table teams.

justhope · Nov 17, 2013

Goodfella said:
For 38 league games, 4-2-3-1 wasn't the right main formation for Inter's squad. Especially with Motta's injuries. They could play it in big games, using the same tactics as in UCL, which they also did in some Serie A big games.
But they didn't have proper, dependable quality wingers, and with Motta always injured or unfit, they tried Zanetti, a past it Vieira and Stankovic as double pivot..
Still, they won most games where they started with a 4-2-3-1 - although not convincingly - and Mourinho used it quite frequently at the end.

Why 4-2-3-1 is rare in Serie A?

This is partly due to the fact what's 4-2-3-1 in Germany or England may not be 4-2-3-1 in Italy. Instead it's often called 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1, with a secunda punta.

Bayern's lineup with Müller behind the CF is called 4-2-3-1, while Sacchi's Milan's lineup with Gullit behind Van Basten is called 4-4-2, even though Müller isn't more midfielder than Gullit and certainly not more than Savicevic, who took over from Gullit..

A bunch of Serie A teams have used 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2 over the years, although it's rare now.

But the biggest reason why 4-2-3-1 still isn't popular in Serie A in 2013 is imo because Italian clubs, unlike EPL/BL/LL clubs, don't buy or grow players with 4-2-3-1 in mind. Except Benitez' Napoli. And they succeeded.
They've taken 22 points out of maximum 24 points against the sides that distinguish Serie A from other leagues - the mid and bottom table teams.

the force is strong in this one :cool:

Dominate · Nov 17, 2013

Goodfella said:
Why 4-2-3-1 is rare in Serie A?

This is partly due to the fact what's 4-2-3-1 in Germany or England may not be 4-2-3-1 in Italy. Instead it's often called 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1, with a secunda punta.

Bayern's lineup with Müller behind the CF is called 4-2-3-1, while Sacchi's Milan's lineup with Gullit behind Van Basten is called 4-4-2, even though Müller isn't more midfielder than Gullit and certainly not more than Savicevic, who took over from Gullit..

But the biggest reason why 4-2-3-1 still isn't popular in Serie A in 2013 is imo because Italian clubs, unlike EPL/BL/LL clubs, don't buy or grow players with 4-2-3-1 in mind. Except Benitez' Napoli. And they succeeded.
They've taken 22 points out of maximum 24 points against the sides that distinguish Serie A from other leagues - the mid and bottom table teams.

All these are good points

Particularly the one about Sacchi's Milan, very good thinking

I guess playing a inverted 433 could also be a 4231, with one CM playing higher up

Fiero · Dec 23, 2013

The problem with the current 3 man midfield and no wingers to track back is actually De Jong's role.

I know De Jong has been performing very well this season, and even if he isn't very creative for a distributor his long balls have actually been accurate, but that's not the problem.

The anchor's role requires intelligence more than anything else. De Jong plays very differently to Van Bommel or even Montolivo when he was used there last season. De Jong's movement is more vertical, in attack and defense. When in possession, he drops back to receive the ball and distribute it, and when out of possession, he usually drops until the edge of the penalty area to bloack that zone, with Zapata following the prima punta around and Mexes/Bonera covering.

Compare that to Van Bommel, who's movement was more horizontal; screening the width of his line hence allowing the side midfielders to stretch further and hence close the wings. Montolivo was doing the same last season, and with El Shaarawy tracking back the team actually had a 4-4-1-1 shape in defending with the right central midfielder (usually Flamini from January onwards) shifting to the right flank. When Niang played, it was a 4-5-1 in defense.

At times this season Allegri used a 4-4-1-1 with Poli and Muntari on each wing. This harmed the team offensively (for example there was absolutely no reason to use it against a Chievo side that was lying in the bottom of the table), but defensively it left no space to be exploited. Barcelona, Chievo, and Ajax hardly had a sniff when Milan was compact.

The point is, Muntari is a good ball winner, but Montolivo/Poli aren't. Neither is Nocerino when he fills in for Muntari. With the Christmas Tree formation, the shape is very narrow in defending and hence the fullbacks are left exposed against the opponent's wide attackers.

Against Roma, Gervinho ran riot behind De Sciglio because De Sciglio had to cover an entire flank on his own, and go forward as well because a big part of Milan's attacking strategy was crosses from De Scigilo and Emanuelson. The same thing happened in the derby. When Inter started to bombard us with one attack after another, Nagatomo was probably their most dangerous player due to exploiting all the space on his flank. It was Jonathan's cross to Palacio that almost won Inter a penalty, and the goal actually came from a Guarin cross on the right.

The Christmas Tree formation allows the team to press very high up, but the team can't keep up the pressing for 90 minutes and thus suffers when the pressing stops. The Ajax game at San Siro is a good example of the Christmas Tree vs a 4-4-1-1 (in the case it was a 4-4-1 as we were a man down). Pre-Montolivo's red card, the team was pressing Ajax in their own half (just like the first half in the derby), and in fact Montolivo's red card was due to this. After the red card, when Mario dropped as a right midfielder and Muntari went to the left, Ajax had all the possession in the world but couldn't create a single chance.

Milan's performance against Inter was similar to Ajax's - naive. Had all the possession, but couldn't do anything useful with it.

Burlesqoni · Dec 23, 2013

Fiero said:
The problem with the current 3 man midfield and no wingers to track back is actually De Jong's role.

I know De Jong has been performing very well this season, and even if he isn't very creative for a distributor his long balls have actually been accurate, but that's not the problem.

The anchor's role requires intelligence more than anything else. De Jong plays very differently to Van Bommel or even Montolivo when he was used there last season. De Jong's movement is more vertical, in attack and defense. When in possession, he drops back to receive the ball and distribute it, and when out of possession, he usually drops until the edge of the penalty area to bloack that zone, with Zapata following the prima punta around and Mexes/Bonera covering.

Compare that to Van Bommel, who's movement was more horizontal; screening the width of his line hence allowing the side midfielders to stretch further and hence close the wings. Montolivo was doing the same last season, and with El Shaarawy tracking back the team actually had a 4-4-1-1 shape in defending with the right central midfielder (usually Flamini from January onwards) shifting to the right flank. When Niang played, it was a 4-5-1 in defense.

At times this season Allegri used a 4-4-1-1 with Poli and Muntari on each wing. This harmed the team offensively (for example there was absolutely no reason to use it against a Chievo side that was lying in the bottom of the table), but defensively it left no space to be exploited. Barcelona, Chievo, and Ajax hardly had a sniff when Milan was compact.

The point is, Muntari is a good ball winner, but Montolivo/Poli aren't. Neither is Nocerino when he fills in for Muntari. With the Christmas Tree formation, the shape is very narrow in defending and hence the fullbacks are left exposed against the opponent's wide attackers.

Against Roma, Gervinho ran riot behind De Sciglio because De Sciglio had to cover an entire flank on his own, and go forward as well because a big part of Milan's attacking strategy was crosses from De Scigilo and Emanuelson. The same thing happened in the derby. When Inter started to bombard us with one attack after another, Nagatomo was probably their most dangerous player due to exploiting all the space on his flank. It was Jonathan's cross to Palacio that almost won Inter a penalty, and the goal actually came from a Guarin cross on the right.

The Christmas Tree formation allows the team to press very high up, but the team can't keep up the pressing for 90 minutes and thus suffers when the pressing stops. The Ajax game at San Siro is a good example of the Christmas Tree vs a 4-4-1-1 (in the case it was a 4-4-1 as we were a man down). Pre-Montolivo's red card, the team was pressing Ajax in their own half (just like the first half in the derby), and in fact Montolivo's red card was due to this. After the red card, when Mario dropped as a right midfielder and Muntari went to the left, Ajax had all the possession in the world but couldn't create a single chance.

Milan's performance against Inter was similar to Ajax's - naive. Had all the possession, but couldn't do anything useful with it.

Other wallers should make note of this.

General · Dec 23, 2013

Fiero said:
The problem with the current 3 man midfield and no wingers to track back is actually De Jong's role.

This is the biggest difference I see from last year's undefeated run to now.

That 4-3-3 with SES always tracking back... damn I miss that. NDJ can do so much but an actual winger tracking back would make a huge huge difference.

Pedro · Jan 15, 2014

Kaká (free role), Balotelli (striker)
Honda (advanced playmaker)
De Jong (ballwinner), Montolivo (deeplying playmaker), Cristante (box-to-box)
Emanuelson (wingback), Zapata (covers), Rami (pushes), De Sciglio (fullback)
Abbiati (goalkeeper)

I find it important that in the centre someone like Montolivo, while that improves the quality of (setting up) attacks. This is a 3-4-2-1(?) in disguise...oh, I see Tadej already did that, or something similar. Anywho, no wingers on paper, which gives room for others to fill that in, like Emanuelson (left), Cristante (right), Kaká (either side), and Honda (either side).

Boki beograd · Jan 15, 2014

You are all such a tactic makers that AC Milan is half step away from Serie B as i see all Milan need is back SES nd kick Honda in the ass so strong to fly over ocean directly to Japan nd sell Kaka to MSL and on his position use younger players... Then they will start to win...Untill then just more defeats comming nd more fired coaches and more cry...

With this team Milan will singing a guns n roses song for this season

Knock, knock knocking on the Serie B doors

Nasha · Jan 15, 2014

Boki beograd said:
You are all such a tactic makers that AC Milan is half step away from Serie B as i see all Milan need is back SES nd kick Honda in the ass so strong to fly over ocean directly to Japan nd sell Kaka to MSL and on his position use younger players... Then they will start to win...Untill then just more defeats comming nd more fired coaches and more cry...

With this team Milan will singing a guns n roses song for this season

Knock, knock knocking on the Serie B doors

you paint quite a picture. :thumbsup:

on the creativity!

necromancer · Jan 15, 2014

Pedro said:
Kaká (free role), Balotelli (striker)
Honda (advanced playmaker)
De Jong (ballwinner), Montolivo (deeplying playmaker), Cristante (box-to-box)
Emanuelson (wingback), Zapata (covers), Rami (pushes), De Sciglio (fullback)
Abbiati (goalkeeper)

I find it important that in the centre someone like Montolivo, while that improves the quality of (setting up) attacks. This is a 3-4-2-1(?) in disguise...oh, I see Tadej already did that, or something similar. Anywho, no wingers on paper, which gives room for others to fill that in, like Emanuelson (left), Cristante (right), Kaká (either side), and Honda (either side).

I like this, with certain reservations about the offensive nature of it. Ball retention will be key to improving the defense, if we choose to play like this.

Az. · Jan 15, 2014

Pedro said:
Kaká (free role), Balotelli (striker)
Honda (advanced playmaker)
De Jong (ballwinner), Montolivo (deeplying playmaker), Cristante (box-to-box)
Emanuelson (wingback), Zapata (covers), Rami (pushes), De Sciglio (fullback)
Abbiati (goalkeeper)

I find it important that in the centre someone like Montolivo, while that improves the quality of (setting up) attacks. This is a 3-4-2-1(?) in disguise...oh, I see Tadej already did that, or something similar. Anywho, no wingers on paper, which gives room for others to fill that in, like Emanuelson (left), Cristante (right), Kaká (either side), and Honda (either side).

I like this formation with the mention that both Kaka and Balo should play a false 9 role & target man at the same time. For example when Honda receives the ball one of them should drop for the 1-2 and the other should make himself free/ drag some defenders with him.

Problem is Balo will most likely fuck up this formation cause his work ethic is almost non existent. If Seedorf motivates him this could work wonders for us.

Night Prowler · Jan 15, 2014

4-2-3-1 would work the best for us.
Gabi
MDS Rami Zapata Furby
Monty DJ
Honda Kaka SES
Balo

second choice: 4-4-2
Gabi
MDS Rami Zapata Furby
Honda Monty DJ SES
Balo Pazzo

third choice: 4-3-3
Gabi
MDS Rami Zapata Furby
Cristante Monty DJ
Honda Balo SES

Honestly, I'm not a fan of 4-3-1-2 or Christmas tree formation.
Right now, since SES is injured, Binho can fill in for him in all these formations. But it works much better with SES cause he's 10x times better in defence.

Pedro · Jan 15, 2014

Night Prowler said:
Right now, since SES is injured, Binho can fill in for him in all these formations. But it works much better with SES cause he's 10x times better in defence.

I'm not sure about that.

Az. said:
I like this formation with the mention that both Kaka and Balo should play a false 9 role & target man at the same time. For example when Honda receives the ball one of them should drop for the 1-2 and the other should make himself free/ drag some defenders with him.

That is one of the many good tactics to be used.

Jivara · Feb 15, 2014

Watching this team play I can say that:

1- players are very individual and selfish, especially in attack, everyone (aside from Pazzini) is not making the correct movements off the ball that could free up space for their team mate. They all want to pick up the ball in safe areas and try a 1v1 dribble and more often than not this kills the tempo of the attack.

2- speaking about tempo, it feels like each player is playing at a different rhythm than the other. Rami is over excited, but Balotelli couldn't give a shit, Honda is trying to settle in, Kaka is trying to prove his worth, Montolivo is nervous, Muntari and Mexes are just fluctuating between angry and careless. It doesn't feel like they have a common goal between them and their focus is way off the match.

3- we have had so many different CB partnerships this year it's ridiculous. The selection is pretty crap but best thing we can do is settle for a pair that are match fit and focused. I would go for Rami + Zapata with Zaccardo as an option as well. The rest should realize their place is in jeopardy if they don't work hard enough in practice.

4- our attacking strategy seems to give Balotelli the ball ASAP and hope he can pull off a wonder goal like the one vs Bologna but I think this is a very dangerous strategy to follow because you are limiting your attacking options and you are relying on the moodiest player in the entire world of football. I am very unhappy with the way Mario has been playing but to be fair to him he has also been asked to switch from lone striker (not his thing!) to a free roaming forward midway through most games and for an unaccomplished player like him it may be confusing since he is not settling into any role.

Phantomx · Feb 15, 2014

^ 1+

with SES return we can do better in 4-2-3-1

Abbiati

De Sciglio - Zapata - Rami - Emanuelson

Montolivo - De Jong

Taarabt - honda - El shaarawy

Balo

or

Abbiati

De Sciglio - Zapata - Rami - Emanuelson

Montolivo - De Jong

Taarabt - balo - El shaarawy

pazzo

Tidalwave · Feb 15, 2014

Jivara said:
Watching this team play I can say that:

1- players are very individual and selfish, especially in attack, everyone (aside from Pazzini) is not making the correct movements off the ball that could free up space for their team mate. They all want to pick up the ball in safe areas and try a 1v1 dribble and more often than not this kills the tempo of the attack.

In my opinion Kaka, Taarabt and Honda they are all attacking midifelder. They are NOT understand the movement as a winger. So if one of them got the ball, the others will get each other way. And speaking of kills the tempo, Constant is killing the tempo of almost every attack we have yesterday. He's got no footballing brain.

Jivara · Feb 15, 2014

Tidalwave said:
In my opinion Kaka, Taarabt and Honda they are all attacking midifelder. They are NOT understand the movement as a winger. So if one of them got the ball, the others will get each other way. And speaking of kills the tempo, Constant is killing the tempo of almost every attack we have yesterday. He's got no footballing brain.

I agree with you

I can't wait for SES to come back

It's strange that last year we were complaining about not having enough AMs and now we have too many of them and now enough wingers. It goes to show you how much thought is put into out transfer strategy.

jurinius · Feb 18, 2014

I think we can play with 4-3-3

Abate - Mexès(c) - Rami - Constant (Def) / Urby (Of)

Essien - Montolivo - De Jong (Def) / Muntari

Kaka / Honda - Balotelli / pazzini - Tarabt / SES

We should build a better defensive communication like when Abate was playing with Thiago Silva and I believe that Constant can play much better. If Montolivo can play as an orchestrator that will be fine but for me he is playing with a lack of confidence those days.

The Man · May 23, 2014

Honda and Kaka is playing yesterdays football. We should get rid of them as soon as possible and start playing 4-3-3 again.

Sod-Lod · May 24, 2014

------------------Perin------------------
--San--------RAM---Musta------DES--
------Crista------NDG------Monty-----
---Taar-----------Balo-----------SES--

milanicious · May 25, 2014

Noway we are getting perin this summer , I would play Gabriel (won't happen anyway)

I'm not sure Cristante can be a regular starter , he is very intelligent going forward but his defensive game needs tons of improvements

road2it · May 26, 2014

With current squad of Milan, I think we can play 4-3-3:

------------------------------------Abbiati

Abate/De Sciglio----------Rami-------------------Mexes-----------Constant/De Scigilo

---------Montolivo/Poli----------------De Jong-----------------Muntari

-----------Taarabt---------------------------------------El Shaarawy

----------------------------------Balotelli/Pazzini

Milan should buy a good DC and a good GK (Abbiati now is 37 years old).

jasiom · Jun 17, 2014

hey, Did anyone watch any primavera games with Inzaghi incharge...

in the 4-3-3... is it more of a 4-(2-1)-3 or 4-(1-2)-3...?

--------x----------x----------x---------
----------------------------------------
-----------x--------------x-------------
-------------------x--------------------
--x-----------x---------x-----------x---
-------------------x--------------------

or... ?

--------x----------x----------x---------
----------------------------------------
-------------------x--------------------
-----------x--------------x-------------
--x-----------x---------x-----------x---
-------------------x--------------------

Freakout · Jun 26, 2014

I agree with 4-3-3 but using 5-3-2 wouldnt be bad,

I'll explain, 5-3-2 is usually a defending formation but if you got some speedy attackers this can be very usefull,

So how we should play in 5-3-2?

Abbiati

Abate/MDS ---------- RAMI ------------- ALEX ---------- ZAPATA -------------- CONSTANT/MDS

MENEZ -------------------- KAKA/HONDA/Mastour --------------------- SES/Taarabt

Balotelli ------------ Pazzini

I am not saying that this will be the best, but in my "personal" opinion its a good one

,

Colossus · Jun 26, 2014

Freakout said:
I agree with 4-3-3 but using 5-3-2 wouldnt be bad,

I'll explain, 5-3-2 is usually a defending formation but if you got some speedy attackers this can be very usefull,

So how we should play in 5-3-2?

Abbiati

Abate/MDS ---------- RAMI ------------- ALEX ---------- ZAPATA -------------- CONSTANT/MDS

MENEZ -------------------- KAKA/HONDA/Mastour --------------------- SES/Taarabt

Balotelli ------------ Pazzini

I am not saying that this will be the best, but in my "personal" opinion its a good one ,

No recognized central midfielders in the 3 man mid? Sorry man that won't work (only in Fifa maybe

)

Sven · Jun 26, 2014

5-0-5

FNF · Jun 26, 2014

I think we should play with eleven players on the pitch.

Neenyg · Jun 27, 2014

Can we not try this formation:

Abate --- Alex --- Rami ----DS
----------De Jong------------
--Poli------Honda----Monty (replacement)----
-------Balo-----SES-----------

Sovilhelm · Jul 26, 2014

Milan should try a 4-4-2

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