Official: Stefano Pioli Thread

Fabio · Jan 5, 2021

Australiano1980 said:
Berlusconi is a myth!

Sacchi's Milan was based on the defensive line pushing the opponent due the high pressure, Pioli's Milan invites everyone to get into our box.

It wasnt an foolish decision by Maldini and Boban, Giampaolo's Sampdoria was really compact and envolving, just needed some better pieces to achieve something.

And when exactly the wingers of Allegri, Seedorf, Miha, Montella, Gattuso worked out in the past decade? Should they asked for Ibrahimovic?

Is real nice to live in the moment, great, but when Ibrahimovic retires, we gonna find the dark times again.

Do you like theo now?

dcfcfan1 · Jan 5, 2021

Mr. Milanista said:
What in gods name am i reading here

Goodfella · Jan 6, 2021

Sven said:
Actually Monza was doing pretty bad with 4312 too so Brocchi changed to 433 and started to win and climb up the table.

Really?

I thought his outdated ideals might at least still work in Serie B.

Australiano1980 said:
Berlusconi is a myth!

Sacchi's Milan was based on the defensive line pushing the opponent due the high pressure, Pioli's Milan invites everyone to get into our box.

It wasnt an foolish decision by Maldini and Boban, Giampaolo's Sampdoria was really compact and envolving, just needed some better pieces to achieve something.

And when exactly the wingers of Allegri, Seedorf, Miha, Montella, Gattuso worked out in the past decade? Should they asked for Ibrahimovic?

Is real nice to live in the moment, great, but when Ibrahimovic retires, we gonna find the dark times again.

Australiano1980 said:
I found funny how people automatically thinks only in the trequartista when two strikers are mentioned.. some say things about Rocco, Sacchi.. when all im saying is, move Hakan aside a little and but in his spot a second striker, a more incisive player and get rid off one of the wingers.

It annoys me that Pioli doesnt have the perception of things like Ancelotti or even Allegri.

Jesus fuckn chryhst :lol:

I didn't think it was possible to come through such conclusions after witnessing a decade where Milan, under different owners, tried to force a wingerless 2 striker formation on the team and ended up getting better results with 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 each time, despite the mediocrity of our wingers.
I especially love the part about Ibra.
Yeah, winger formations only work with and because of Ibra. It's not like Allegri's 4-3-1-2 stopped working the minute Ibra left...

Thank fuck the dark times when coaches were fired for not pulling off an outdated style is over.

MilanMB · Jan 6, 2021

can people stop saying 4312 is outdated?? :lol:

You just need the right players for it, that's all.

Football being played with four defenders and two strikers. That can never be outdated.

Goodfella · Jan 6, 2021

MilanMB said:
can people stop saying 4312 is outdated?? You just need the right players for it, that's all.

Football being played with four defenders and two strikers. That can never be outdated.

4312 is not outdated.

4312 with a classic trequartista is.

mumbojumbo · Jan 6, 2021

Australiano1980 said:
Berlusconi is a myth!

Sacchi's Milan was based on the defensive line pushing the opponent due the high pressure, Pioli's Milan invites everyone to get into our box.

It wasnt an foolish decision by Maldini and Boban, Giampaolo's Sampdoria was really compact and envolving, just needed some better pieces to achieve something.

And when exactly the wingers of Allegri, Seedorf, Miha, Montella, Gattuso worked out in the past decade? Should they asked for Ibrahimovic?

Is real nice to live in the moment, great, but when Ibrahimovic retires, we gonna find the dark times again.

We used to be bad with wingers because we played Hakan, Suso and Paqueta as wingers. They are not fast players.

We can't play with 2 strikers because teams nowadays squeeze space very tightly. Guardiola's Barcelona started the shift to one striker system.

In order to go back to 4312, our midfielders need to be good in possession and defending. We simply can't do that now. In Ancelotti's time starting 2007, we couldn't do with Pirlo Gattuso and Seedorf anymore. Ambrosini needed to help the midfield. That pushed Seedorf to AM role. Back then we had 4 playmakers playing in the same lineup at the same time. We were able to hold possession most of the time. One time Ancelotti was called playmakers eater.

mumbojumbo · Jan 6, 2021

Right now we practically defend with 9 players and leave the striker as an opportunist (not pressing as much) . Everyone else runs like there is no tomorrow

Jivara · Jan 6, 2021

On paper we do play with one striker and two wingers but actually the left winger normally cuts inside (Rebic mainly) so more often than not we play similar to 4-4-2. Actually, in attack we take many shapes depending on the opponent, sometimes Calabria is asked to push forward, other times its Theo, and sometimes both. Sometimes Kessie joins in..

The idea of a formation is more suited to the defensive shape and the current 4231 is the best one because it gives us a stronger chance of winning the midfield battle.

Lets assume we play 433, then you would need the three forwards to press, so this is something that is not possible with Ibra today. Then you would expose our central midfielders who would have to cover more ground in midfield, Kessie and Bennacer are both better playing in tight spaces, they are not box to box players. Also we don't have the depth in midfield for that.

As for 4312, like I said above we are already playing something close to that, with Rebic moving diagonally and Saelemakers covering behind him (double pressing with Calabria) while Kessie covers a lot for Theo who has the lane to bomb forward (created by Rebics movement).

4-2-3-1 is the best formation for this team at this moment in time. When Ibra leaves, I'd imagine we would have to adjust a little bit depending on who we get to replace him. In his presence he gives us the option to defend deep and play a long ball to him (because he often wins those battles) or to build from the back (if the opponent doesn't press). Perhaps if Leao evolves into the next CF and can improve either his aerial game or his pressing game, we can continue the same way with the former option or perhaps play a high press 4-3-3 with the latter.

Australiano1980 · Jan 6, 2021

Ash said:
And why the fuck would we fucking do that?

I mean, are you really gunning for the title of the most delusional/out of touch poster in this forum?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

To be more incisive, to decide easy games, for example Parma and Verona. We play same way against a strong lad the same way we do with Ibis. Points are going away for a reason. Inter is coming.

I'm with football since i was 8 (1988), one thing i am not is delusional. :thumbsup:

Fabio said:
Do you like theo now?

i explain that already.

Australiano1980 · Jan 6, 2021

Goodfella said:
Really?
I thought his outdated ideals might at least still work in Serie B.

Jesus fuckn chryhst
I didn't think it was possible to come through such conclusions after witnessing a decade where Milan, under different owners, tried to force a wingerless 2 striker formation on the team and ended up getting better results with 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 each time, despite the mediocrity of our wingers.
I especially love the part about Ibra.
Yeah, winger formations only work with and because of Ibra. It's not like Allegri's 4-3-1-2 stopped working the minute Ibra left...

Thank fuck the dark times when coaches were fired for not pulling off an outdated style is over.

There are other formations with two strikers besides 4-3-1-2 you know. You the one stuck in 2007.

I would never change Bennacer and Kessie, they are a strong middle.. but it needs to be worked. 4-2-2-2, 4-4-2. Pioli needs to find a way to make the team more solid and learn to make high pressure.
Inter started as a mess but is coming.. Juventus is a mess, but is coming.. our difference is already gone..

Is on the graphics, when u go up to fast, you also go down to fast.

Since Ibrahimovic left, 10 years ago, how many CL did we play?

Jivara said:
On paper we do play with one striker and two wingers but actually the left winger normally cuts inside (Rebic mainly) so more often than not we play similar to 4-4-2. Actually, in attack we take many shapes depending on the opponent, sometimes Calabria is asked to push forward, other times its Theo, and sometimes both. Sometimes Kessie joins in..

The idea of a formation is more suited to the defensive shape and the current 4231 is the best one because it gives us a stronger chance of winning the midfield battle.

Lets assume we play 433, then you would need the three forwards to press, so this is something that is not possible with Ibra today. Then you would expose our central midfielders who would have to cover more ground in midfield, Kessie and Bennacer are both better playing in tight spaces, they are not box to box players. Also we don't have the depth in midfield for that.

As for 4312, like I said above we are already playing something close to that, with Rebic moving diagonally and Saelemakers covering behind him (double pressing with Calabria) while Kessie covers a lot for Theo who has the lane to bomb forward (created by Rebics movement).

4-2-3-1 is the best formation for this team at this moment in time. When Ibra leaves, I'd imagine we would have to adjust a little bit depending on who we get to replace him. In his presence he gives us the option to defend deep and play a long ball to him (because he often wins those battles) or to build from the back (if the opponent doesn't press). Perhaps if Leao evolves into the next CF and can improve either his aerial game or his pressing game, we can continue the same way with the former option or perhaps play a high press 4-3-3 with the latter.

I get what u said. I agree. The (4-2-x-x) i wouln't change it.

But you need standarts, identity and continuity. Hakan for example receive the ball and needs to play sideways.. is predictable.

You can't also expect to play two strikers and put Bacca-L.Adriano, or Destro-Cerci on it.. Matri-Menez(Menez did ok tho.)

MilanMB · Jan 6, 2021

Goodfella said:
4312 is not outdated.

4312 with a classic trequartista is.

this i can agree with, if you talk about the lazy trequartista a la riquelme.

Goodfella · Jan 6, 2021

Australiano1980 said:
There are other formations with two strikers besides 4-3-1-2 you know.

Sure, but you're lamenting that we fired Giampaolo and dropped the 4-3-1-2.

Also, you do realize that when Ibra arrived, and Suso was dropped, Pioli switched to 4-4-2, with Ibra and one of Leao/Rebic as the front duo?
It gradually turned into a 4-2-3-1 due to the problems we were facing with that shape. We were being outnumbered in the midfield, the forwards had more ground to cover than they could handle. The team was unable to control games. Kessie was still having more influence in the final third than he could handle, the midfield duo was often unlinked with the attack. The team wasn't as penetrative on the wings as we needed to be. Moving Hakan to the middle solved or reduced all these problems.

You want to go back to that because........

Australiano1980 said:
Since Ibrahimovic left, 10 years ago, how many CL did we play?

Imagine going through a decade where Milan under 3 different owners tried to force a wingerless 2 striker formation on a team that had achieved better results than expected with wingers....and then blame that wasted decade on the use of wingers.

Australiano1980 · Jan 7, 2021

Goodfella said:
Sure, but you're lamenting that we fired Giampaolo and dropped the 4-3-1-2.

Also, you do realize that when Ibra arrived, and Suso was dropped, Pioli switched to 4-4-2, with Ibra and one of Leao/Rebic as the front duo?
It gradually turned into a 4-2-3-1 due to the problems we were facing with that shape. We were being outnumbered in the midfield, the forwards had more ground to cover than they could handle. The team was unable to control games. Kessie was still having more influence in the final third than he could handle, the midfield duo was often unlinked with the attack. The team wasn't as penetrative on the wings as we needed to be. Moving Hakan to the middle solved or reduced all these problems.

You want to go back to that because........

Imagine going through a decade where Milan under 3 different owners tried to force a wingerless 2 striker formation on a team that had achieved better results than expected with wingers....and then blame that wasted decade on the use of wingers.

I dont remember regret anything about Giampaolo but its ok.

Need practice to play 4-4-2, the lines leaves too much space between the sectors and it needs practicing to learn how to fill those spaces. We have a perfect double pivot to do that, but no practice at all in this defensive issue. When attacking the team doesnt have acceleration(Except Theo runs) and tend to drift to the sides when attacking.

But if is too hard for the coach.. lets play the easier way, actually Ibrahimovic said 'NO' after one try and Pioli said 'ok'.

In Pioli's 4-4-1-1(you guys call 4-2-3-1) also need to work those lines or the opponents will be entering your defensive line as they want(Every game it happens).. i mean, that pass from Dybala yesterday, should never happen.

I just hope to get back to Champions League. Nothing more.

PS. Pardon my english.

Jivara · Jan 8, 2021

I agree with you Australiano

It would be nice to know that we can play 4-4-2 variations, with clear support from midfield in defending the sides.

I think we can play similar to early to mid 2000 Juventus squad, with two pivots (Davids & Tacchinardi, Emerson & Vieira) and two wide attacking midfielders (Nedved & Camoranesi) and a striker (Trezeguet) and support striker (Del Piero)

Perhaps something like this with our current squad

-----------Bennacer--------Kessie
--Saelemakers---------------Calhanoglu
---------Ibrahimovic------Rebic/Leao

In essence that would mean that you are switching Rebic and Hakan's positions in our current formation.

Goodfella · Jan 8, 2021

Some of our defensive issues stem from the calculated risks the team is taking, e.g. pressing high, attacking with numbers. It's punished sometimes, but overall it's rewarding.

The rest is due to individual errors.

Romagnoli gets the most stick, but one recurring problem that could and should be reduced is the inability of our midfielders to track and block late runners. Both Bennacer and Kessie often have lapses in those moments, not to mention the other midfielders. That's where their inexperience or lack of defensive awareness still show. We're particularly vulnerable to late runners who arrive to meet a high cross.

Perhaps we need a no-nonsense, aerially dominant DM against certain opponents? A Van Bommel type that lives for those defensive situations when progressive midfielders like Kessie and Bennacer shut off. I feel the CBs weren't protected enough by the mids against Roma, Inter, Lille and Juve.

But taking out a progressive midfielder for a holding one doesn't come with a sacrifice. The team takes bigger risks when they find it difficult to score. We didn't get caught on the break as much when Ibra, Rebic and Hakan were scoring while the team hadn't even left 2nd gear.
Having a dependable goalscorer at RW, like Thauvin, could greatly reduce our defensive issues by accommodating a holding mid and lessening the need to attack with numbers.

Cloren · Jan 10, 2021

Ronin said:
Has the potential to be better. Let's see

Ancelotti was great, but had some consistency issues and still has them... and the squads he got were incredible, he had 11 Ibras in terms of personality

I don’t think anyone can be better than Ancelotti tbh. Ancelotti had issues with the league but his champions league campaign with Milan was honestly quite incredible. It?s incredibly hard for any manager to win a champions league, Sir Alex/Guardiola/Mourinho won it 2 times in their career only and they played with some incredible teams. Ancelotti won 2 with Milan in 2003-07 and should have won it in 2005 as well. His team was great but didn?t he made that team essentially, Kaka/Sheva essentially only peaked with Ancelotti. He essentially made Pirlo the player he is.

Australiano1980 · Jan 11, 2021

Goodfella said:
Some of our defensive issues stem from the calculated risks the team is taking, e.g. pressing high, attacking with numbers. It's punished sometimes, but overall it's rewarding.

The rest is due to individual errors.

Romagnoli gets the most stick, but one recurring problem that could and should be reduced is the inability of our midfielders to track and block late runners. Both Bennacer and Kessie often have lapses in those moments, not to mention the other midfielders. That's where their inexperience or lack of defensive awareness still show. We're particularly vulnerable to late runners who arrive to meet a high cross.

Perhaps we need a no-nonsense, aerially dominant DM against certain opponents? A Van Bommel type that lives for those defensive situations when progressive midfielders like Kessie and Bennacer shut off. I feel the CBs weren't protected enough by the mids against Roma, Inter, Lille and Juve.

But taking out a progressive midfielder for a holding one doesn't come with a sacrifice. The team takes bigger risks when they find it difficult to score. We didn't get caught on the break as much when Ibra, Rebic and Hakan were scoring while the team hadn't even left 2nd gear.
Having a dependable goalscorer at RW, like Thauvin, could greatly reduce our defensive issues by accommodating a holding mid and lessening the need to attack with numbers.

This 'rewarding' that im talking about. Saves us 12 points, is 39 years old and is 1.95m tall.

Individual mistakes happens, like Romagnoli and Kjaer bumping into each other months ago..
But most of it is duo poorly positioning of the entire team.
The rest i agree with you. :thumbsup:

Jivara said:
I agree with you Australiano

It would be nice to know that we can play 4-4-2 variations, with clear support from midfield in defending the sides.

I think we can play similar to early to mid 2000 Juventus squad, with two pivots (Davids & Tacchinardi, Emerson & Vieira) and two wide attacking midfielders (Nedved & Camoranesi) and a striker (Trezeguet) and support striker (Del Piero)

Perhaps something like this with our current squad

-----------Bennacer--------Kessie
--Saelemakers---------------Calhanoglu
---------Ibrahimovic------Rebic/Leao

In essence that would mean that you are switching Rebic and Hakan's positions in our current formation.

Exactly, to vary.
Is not like we are ditching the one striker forever, just need variation.. imo we should be attacking with 2 players(need practice, forget Ibra's opinion), and the defensive line is important in this process.
We have a good squad, can't waste that betting on a game plan set up only for Ibra.
I mean, Le?o, Rebic can play a nice football, i hope we sign a cool #9 too.

Australiano1980 · Jan 11, 2021

Cloren said:
I don?t think anyone can be better than Ancelotti tbh. Ancelotti had issues with the league but his champions league campaign with Milan was honestly quite incredible. It?s incredibly hard for any manager to win a champions league, Sir Alex/Guardiola/Mourinho won it 2 times in their career only and they played with some incredible teams. Ancelotti won 2 with Milan in 2003-07 and should have won it in 2005 as well. His team was great but didn?t he made that team essentially, Kaka/Sheva essentially only peaked with Ancelotti. He essentially made Pirlo the player he is.

Ancelotti is a monster! :star:

He managed from one season to another change a very incisive 4312 for a 4411 when defending.. since that our attack plan that season were Kak?'s runs.

He had a good squad(even losing his main player), and take everything he could from it. Thats 'beautiful' coaching.

Australiano1980 · Feb 1, 2021

What a effort to lose the game.

Leao floating behind the striker was going well.

Goodfella · Feb 1, 2021

Australiano1980 said:
What a effort to lose the game.

Leao floating behind the striker was going well.

+1
Sack him.
Enough is enough.

Australiano1980 · Feb 4, 2021

Goodfella said:
+1
Sack him.
Enough is enough.

If he stays in the odds.. 99% of getting sacked in the next few months.

CDarius · Feb 5, 2021

Best thing to happen to us in those past years. Ti amo Padre :proud:

Pingu · Feb 5, 2021

Australiano1980 said:
If he stays in the odds.. 99% of getting sacked in the next few months.

Where does this 99% come from? What sort of logical equation results in this outcome?

Casualista · Feb 5, 2021

Australiano1980 · Feb 5, 2021

I just figure.. 10 years, 7/8 clubs. Its a lot. Thats shows no solid work. The level of the clubs showed no demands for his work.

I would had fired him after that 5x0 against Atalanta. Lucky him, emergency Ibra came to rescue.

Like i said, im just pointing the facts. It happened.

Massaro94 · Feb 5, 2021

Australiano1980 said:
I just figure.. 10 years, 7/8 clubs. Its a lot. Thats shows no solid work. The level of the clubs showed no demands for his work.

I would had fired him after that 5x0 against Atalanta. Lucky him, emergency Ibra came to rescue.

Like i said, im just pointing the facts. It happened.

Bruh we're top of the league with a squad of players who've never even finished in the top 4

Give him a break.

And this talk about him having x amount of clubs in 10 years means nothing. Ancelotti has managed 6 clubs in the last decade. Been fired from 4 of em. Does this make him a bad manager ?

KujaIX · Feb 5, 2021

Massaro94 said:
Bruh we're top of the league with a squad of players who've never even finished in the top 4

Give him a break.

And this talk about him having x amount of clubs in 10 years means nothing. Ancelotti has managed 6 clubs in the last decade. Been fired from 4 of em. Does this make him a bad manager ?

Perfect post.

Goodfella · Feb 5, 2021

Massaro94 said:
Bruh we're top of the league with a squad of players who've never even finished in the top 4

Give him a break.

And this talk about him having x amount of clubs in 10 years means nothing. Ancelotti has managed 6 clubs in the last decade. Been fired from 4 of em. Does this make him a bad manager ?

Why would Australiano care about Milan being top of the league?
If a man wants Giampaolo back, then results are not a priority.

The Luddites are pissed because Pioli is getting results with a modern tactical style they can't identify with.

MilanMB · Feb 5, 2021

Australians, your posts in this thread are silly. We should all be happy that Pioli wasn't fired after Atalanta. Ibra's impact can't be denied, but we've shown that we can win consistently without him as well. The players are giving credit to Pioli as one I've the main reasons to our success, how do you explain that?

Sognatore · Feb 5, 2021

Official: Stefano Pioli Thread

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