AC Milan Tactics

ELMAGO99 said:

So you prefer:

--Monty----De Jong---Ambro-----

to

Monty---De Jong----Boateng

?

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no no.

i said only v. very strong teams who we are worried about attacking us.


I'd say in 80% of fixtures I prefer one with boateng.


@ my 3-4-3... it's ultra risky AND we would need a lot of practice.... because it's a completely different idea to what we've done.

Also the defense scares me. It makes me wish we had thiago, who IMO is a natural sweeper. Or even Nesta, who can easily play it

Senatore_M84 said:

posted this in match thread-
http://forum.acmilan-online.com/showpost.php?p=1508638&postcount=1078

finny how i mentioned this stuff a month ago . Me and Allegri, he knows whats up


The other thing I want to see us work on but really don't think will happen is perhaps a true 3-4-3

--El shaarawy--Pazzo--Robinho
Urby--Montolivo--De Jong--Abate
----Acerbi--Mexes--Bonera

And then of course a 3-5-2 where 1 of the forwards is dropped for boateng or even nocerino.

It can work, if we get effective pressing out of el shaarawy, pazzini and robinho, which all have shown capability of.

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3 center defense back with our slow CBs is risk in counter attack mode.

We are lacking for creating sentences on the last third, and also connecting the sentence from midfield to Forward zone too second third; I believe the cooperating between Prince, Binho, SES92, Furby and Monty, as all of them, can make a great footballing style IF AL find the chemistry there with help of the players too.

As I posted before:

4-2-3-1: against strong team

--------------------ABI--------------------
--Abate---------Zap---Ace----------Anto-- /Bon /Mex /Anto
-----------Monty----------DJ-------------- /Ambro as sub
-------Prince-------SES------Furby-------- /Binho if he is fine / NOC "for defensing role"
-------------------PAZZ------------------- /Pato if he is fine

or 4-4-2: against ordinary team

--------------------ABI--------------------
--Abate---------Zap---Ace---------0-DSG-- /Bon /Mex /Anto
-------------Monty----------DJ------------- /Ambro as sub
---------Prince-----------------Furby------- / NOC "for defensing role"
--------------------------SES-------------- /Binho if he is fine
----------------PAZZ---------------------- /Pato if he is fine

we should look at our team and then play 4 3 1 2 or 4 2 1 1 2 why this second formation with 2 dm s like de jong and muntari we could be well organized and we simple cant play 4 3 3 with likes urby and others simple we have lwf but no rw at alllll and we should play


------------------------------------abi---------------------------
abate-----------------mexes-----------------zapata/acerbi------------de sceglio

--------------------de jong--------------------muntari-------------
--------------------------------montolivo--------------------

-------------------------------boateng-------------------
--------------------------------------------ell--------------
-----------------------------pato---------------
simple best formation couse you can all say play 3 at back or with 3 forward but it is not good when you have no rw or almost never played 3 at back .

Problem with 3-4-3 is...2 things:
1) Berlusconi and the 3 man d.
2) Our defense, we don't have anyone there that looks like a sweeper, and and its a relatively new defense (on the other hand one can say that the fact that its relatively new, makes it easier to introduce a 3 men d. concept, but still).


4-3-3 seems to be our way with this team, yeah I don't mind a more defensive 4-3-3 vs big teams either, because again our defense is relatively new, having a less defensive oriented midfield could and 3 guys upfront that don't track much...we're screwed.

Yes, I agree with that opinion. 3-men defence is too risky with our players at the moment. While 4-3-3 suits them perfectly.

zapata potentially our best option for sweeper.
he was everywhere vs udine.

Urby and El Shaarawy did a fine job tracking the Cagliari fullbacks last game.
To the point that one could argue that we defended with four in midfield, cause there was always one extra forward defending one side of the midfield.

We really need this work rate for the 4-3-3 to work.

Sven said:

Urby and El Shaarawy did a fine job tracking the Cagliari fullbacks last game.
To the point that one could argue that we defended with four in midfield, cause there was always one extra forward defending one side of the midfield.

We really need this work rate for the 4-3-3 to work.

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pretty much this.

it's why 4-2-fantasia never worked.

it's not like you can't use that system (though it's infinitely harder)... but you better be getting full team defensive work and it's possible unrealistic to find perfect players to work that hard in both aspects.

Senatore_M84 said:

pretty much this.

it's why 4-2-fantasia never worked.

it's not like you can't use that system (though it's infinitely harder)... but you better be getting full team defensive work and it's possible unrealistic to find perfect players to work that hard in both aspects.

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You need to press strong high in the pitch for that to work... We do it occasionally, we get better when the team hit top form, but you can't rely on that with those players. We need to get back to shape to defend.

Besides our team concede too much for the opponent. For whatever reason this is a team very prone to mistakes.

Sven said:

You need to press strong high in the pitch for that to work... We do it occasionally, we get better when the team hit top form, but you can't rely on that with those players. We need to get back to shape to defend.

Besides our team concede too much for the opponent. For whatever reason this is a team very prone to mistakes.

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it has to do with style we play. We try to attack. Allegri knows if he goes cattenaccio he'll be fired ASAP. Berlusconi will not stand for it.

When you do that you lose shape MUCH easier.

Milan playing counterattack?! Lulz. People are aware of Milan's philosophy, right?

We might as well write-off this season and go full on kamikaze attack. Leonardo styles. No fear. The current crop need to grow some balls and fight. We are Milan!

crazy4milan said:

Problem with 3-4-3 is...2 things:
1) Berlusconi and the 3 man d.
2) Our defense, we don't have anyone there that looks like a sweeper, and and its a relatively new defense (on the other hand one can say that the fact that its relatively new, makes it easier to introduce a 3 men d. concept, but still).


4-3-3 seems to be our way with this team, yeah I don't mind a more defensive 4-3-3 vs big teams either, because again our defense is relatively new, having a less defensive oriented midfield could and 3 guys upfront that don't track much...we're screwed.

Click to expand...

I don't think the 3-man defense is a problem. In my eyes, the defense isn't the problem at all, it's the midfield which is lacking in the technical aspect. I mean, look at the team Fiorentina have constructed; their midfield is brilliant.

You know what I don't understand? Milan have the highest wage bill out of all teams in Serie A and we're unable to construct a brilliant side. When I look at what teams of the caliber of Napoli, Udinese and Fiorentina, in terms of fiscal availability, have created, I'm left bewildered. To put this into perspective, Udinese spend slightly over a sixth of what Milan spend and Napoli just under half. Serious questions need to be asked. The management are using the economic situation as a smokescreen to cover up their inability to operate this club properly.

Sven said:

Urby and El Shaarawy did a fine job tracking the Cagliari fullbacks last game.
To the point that one could argue that we defended with four in midfield, cause there was always one extra forward defending one side of the midfield.

We really need this work rate for the 4-3-3 to work.

Click to expand...

The role I'm most curious about is that of Traore's last match... and eventually Boateng's I guess.

When El Shaarawy and Urby dropped back to defend, Traore was often the furthest forward midfielder. It then looked a classic 4-4-1-1 with Traore behind Pazzini.

This'll look much better when with Boateng.

Like I've said, my biggest objection to us playing counter-attacking football is that our defence is not good enough to absorb pressure from a half-decent attack. But then, counters can be started even from the middle of the pitch.

Off the ball, if we move to a 4-4-1-1 from the 4-2-1-3, Boateng and Pazzini will be well placed to finish counters started by one of the midfielders winning possession back. It is a good technique and I think Allegri has that in mind by playing the 3rd central midfielder higher up the pitch when the wing forwards drop back to defend.


----------Monty----De Jong-----
--------------Boateng---------

--Robinho-----Pazzini------El Shaarawy

Which turns into -

---Robinho---Monty---De Jong---El Shaarawy
--------------------Boateng-----------

---------------------Pazzini---------------

necromancer said:

The role I'm most curious about is that of Traore's last match... and eventually Boateng's I guess.

When El Shaarawy and Urby dropped back to defend, Traore was often the furthest forward midfielder. It then looked a classic 4-4-1-1 with Traore behind Pazzini.

This'll look much better when with Boateng.

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It was even more clear after the subs... Constant was playing like an AM on the left, alway forward of the line with De Jong and Ambro. They also had no fixed role, both defending center or right and covering the left. Though at this point Milan was one man up (so the change to a 4-2-1-3 of sorts).

Allegri must be changing to a double pivot, or at least to a lopsided three man midfield.
Monty look for the ball, so he drops more frequently... Traore/Constant/Noce tend to look for gaps upfront and make a run.

Like I've said, my biggest objection to us playing counter-attacking football is that our defence is not good enough to absorb pressure from a half-decent attack. But then, counters can be started even from the middle of the pitch.

Off the ball, if we move to a 4-4-1-1 from the 4-2-1-3, Boateng and Pazzini will be well placed to finish counters started by one of the midfielders winning possession back. It is a good technique and I think Allegri has that in mind by playing the 3rd central midfielder higher up the pitch when the wing forwards drop back to defend.

Click to expand...

I'm ok on how Milan defend once the team is well positioned... The problems I see are when our defense is caught off guard (I think 90% is thanks to some one panicking under pressure or misplacing simple passes) and defensive set pieces.

.

best posibily formation is 4 2 1 1 2 why ,with this formation we would have 2 dm s covering defence and we could bring ball higher more easly ,then when attacking it should look like this--

---------------------abbia-----------
abate--------mexes------------zapata--------de sceglio

---------------de jong----------muntari---
---------------------montolivo-----------
-----------------------boa------------
----------------pato-------------el-------

when defending


-------------------gk----------------
rb-----------cb---------cb----------lb--------
boa----------jong---------muntari------monty
---------------------------el------------
-----------------pato----------

But I thought Allegri didn't know abut other tactics or formations

One thing I don't understand is why the double pivot was dropped for the Lazio game even though we absolutely dominated the derby with the Montolivo - De Jong duo.

Another thing I don't understand is why so far there hasn't been a regular starting CD duo.

The 13 goals we conceded were - 7 from set pieces and 6 from open play. Out of the 6 goals we conceded from open play, 4 of them were when we weren't using a double pivot.

So I think set-pieces aside, our defense is not bad. 6 in 11 games, and half of them were against Lazio after the midfield setup was inexplicably changed.

I'm not an expert but I think miscommunication contributes to mistakes in defending set pieces. I don't know what the answer to it is, but I do know that a regular defensive pair would solve a lot of communication problems.

And that is why I don't understand the sudden change to a 3 man defense. The team proved that apart from set pieces it is solid enough when using a double pivot in midfield. But for some reason Allegri decided to change the system, and even after Lazio's game he opted to not return to the 4-2-3-1.

It might be an experiment worth giving more than a game to try, but I don't understand the reasoning behind experimenting even though the 4-2-3-1 was working fine. We played a variation of the double pivot at least since the Udinese game. So let's examine the results since then and the nature of goals conceded:

Udinese - L - 2 set piece goals.
Parma - D - 1 set piece goal.
Zenit - W - 1 set piece goal + 1 from open play.
Inter - L - 1 set piece goal.

So in a 4 game stretch we only conceded once from open play. That was secure. Now some might argue that the new formation could be better for us from an offensive point of view but I don't see how. The 3 man defense costs us a player in a more advanced area in the pitch were we so desperately need any quality. Plus it favors attacking pacy wingbacks while we don't have a single wingback with the suitable characteristics to make the most out of that system.

So I don't understand the reasoning behind switching to a 3 man defense and I think that if we use a double pivot and a regular CD duo our defensive system could be at its best possible state.

The double pivot is still there in the 3-4-3. Although flanked by wing backs, the role of the CMs is not much different from what it was in the 4-2-3-1.


First sample was not very good IMO... It worked while the team was pressing all around with energy, but once the team needed to calm down we missed the extra man in midfield. Malaga pinned back our wingers, and that can happen a lot with this formation.

Sven said:

The double pivot is still there in the 3-4-3. Although flanked by wing backs, the role of the CMs is not much different from what it was in the 4-2-3-1.

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I know. In that point I was referring to the switch in the Lazio game. Then, naturally, after that change wasn't successful I thought we would have switched back to what was starting to work. I still don't understand why the 4-2-3-1 was sacrificed.

Sven said:

First sample was not very good IMO... It worked while the team was pressing all around with energy, but once the team needed to calm down we missed the extra man in midfield. Malaga pinned back our wingers, and that can happen a lot with this formation.

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Yes that's exactly what I was saying. Even though our third midfielder so far hasn't been very successful (whether it has been Nocerino or Boateng), it is still a better option. Once either of them hits better form (especially Boateng as his characteristics are more suitable) we could look so much better offensively.

Also in home games and against teams that will defend deep, we could even use Bojan (or Robinho when he's fit) as a withdrawn forward.

The 3 man defense robs us of these 2 options and forces the team to rely mainly on both wingbacks and the more offensively superior CM. Now I'm not sure we have a single player with characteristics suitable for the wingback position, and Montolivo, as good as he is, it wouldn't be wise to rely on him as the only source to move the ball from defense to attack.

I'm curious to se more of montolivo as a TQ in a 4-2-3-1. I wanna se Allegri try out Muntari and Dejong as double pivots and Monty closer to our attack. Flanked by El Shaarawy to the left and Robinho/bojan to the right inserting runs into the box. Pato as our man up front.

-----De Jong---- Muntari-----
Robinho----Monty-----El Shaarawy
------------Pato----------------


Against weaker teams Allegri should def. play more attacking with bojan as a TQ. His last performace in that role was really impressive.

-----De Jong---- Monty----
Robinho----Bojan-----El Shaarawy
------------Pato----------------

Here:



The team sitting behind the ball defending in a 4-1-4-1.
El Shaarawy, Boateng, Flamini and Niang in line, Montolivo between midfield and defense

sweet

Sven said:

Here:

The team sitting behind the ball defending in a 4-1-4-1.
El Shaarawy, Boateng, Flamini and Niang in line, Montolivo between midfield and defense

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Yup, nicely captured.. El Shaarawy's acceleration makes it possible for him to drop even further. Sometimes he defends alongside Montolivo's line as well.

Milan Defence – Park the Bus?

As inevitable and misguided as the notion of Barcelona requiring a Plan B, it did not take long for the assertion, incorrectly, that this was a result due to Milan “parking the bus”.

It’s a notion that is as wrong as it is misguided.

True, Milan only had 27% possession as they made just 210 successful passes from 285 attempted passes but this was not a performance that relies upon a deep defensive line and an element of luck against a team that is peppering your goal with attempts.

Firstly, Milan was content to alter their defensive line in different periods of the game. They initially set up with a fairly high defensive line and they tried to squeeze Barcelona. Valdes forced into kicking out from goal kicks twice in the opening minutes. In the 3rd minute, Prince-Boateng could be seen waving his team forward to squeeze their opponents at a throw in deep inside Barcelona territory. In the second half they again sought to push higher.

Yet they were equally content to drop deeper and hold a defensive line on the edge of their penalty area during periods of prolonged Barcelona possession.

Milan were highly disciplined, winning 17 tackles from 22 attempted and conceding just 10 fouls throughout compared to the 16 fouls given away by Barcelona.

With defence and midfield lines moving tightly together when needed, Milan were able to continually intercept Barcelona passes as shown below:-

Milan Interceptions

Finally, there was nothing lucky about Milan and their approach. Last season, Barcelona had 47 attempts in two games against Chelsea yet lost. They would lament their bad luck with their finishing and Chelsea’s luck in not conceding. They could have no such gripes this morning.

This was the product of a fine tactical plan from Allegri allied to a collective performance from the entire Milan team. A tactical plan that adapted to the circumstances as the game progressed displaying intelligence and understanding. It’s difficult to pinpoint individuals but the diligence of El-Shaarawy and Prince-Boateng in performing defensive duties and effectively sacrificing their attacking qualities for the team must be mentioned.

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http://chalkontheboots.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/ac-milan-vs-barcelona-questions-questions-questions/

It's surprisingly from a La Liga blog. But one of few to recognize that Milan tactic against Barça was not parking the bus. Our defensive line was relatively high many times and the "secret" was to keep midfield and defense compact... Basically following Sacchi's textbook method of reducing the field to 30m

Sven said:

http://chalkontheboots.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/ac-milan-vs-barcelona-questions-questions-questions/

It's surprisingly from a La Liga blog. But one of few to recognize that Milan tactic against Barça was not parking the bus. Our defensive line was relatively high many times and the "secret" was to keep midfield and defense compact... Basically following Sacchi's textbook method of reducing the field to 30m

Click to expand...

Ambrosini really should have a compilation of this match. Though, tbf it's with a team sitting in position his strong points always come out.

Jasper said:

Ambrosini really should have a compilation of this match. Though, tbf it's with a team sitting in position his strong points always come out.

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Music - Born to Run.

Fuck, this NEEDS to happen!

So G talked yesterday that the best defense win the league and that he will make reinforcements there.

The blame for our defensive trouble in that campaign are in the first half of the season.

In that terrible start of the season we conceded 18 in the first 13 games

Our luck changed in the home game against Juventus (the first in a row of games using 4-3-3, Constant as LB, etc.)
But, even if we got 5 victories in a 6 games period, the defense was still not clicking - 9 goals conceded in those 6 games (4 x Roma), in fact conceding at the same rate as before.


Our defensive record improved a lot in January and that coincides with winter pre season. In the second game back, against Sampdoria, Allegri established for once Zapata and Mexes as CB pair and we conceded 11 goals in 17 Serie A games since.
For reference in the same period - Juventus 8, Napoli 16, Fiore 24, Inter LOL.

8 clean sheets and only Fiore and Catania scored more than one goal against us.
That's a solid defensive record and not far from Ladri.

Surely it's not only about the CBs. Team overall improved in understanding, chemistry, Flamini and Muntari have positive impact defensively, etc.

But that we achieved that even without De Jong IMO is impressive and Galliani have a solid reason to consider that as the starting point... keep Mexes and buy Zapata. Bring a player who can fight for a spot with them.

Sven said:

So G talked yesterday that the best defense win the league and that he will make reinforcements there.

The blame for our defensive trouble in that campaign are in the first half of the season.

In that terrible start of the season we conceded 18 in the first 13 games

Our luck changed in the home game against Juventus (the first in a row of games using 4-3-3, Constant as LB, etc.)
But, even if we got 5 victories in a 6 games period, the defense was still not clicking - 9 goals conceded in those 6 games (4 x Roma), in fact conceding at the same rate as before.


Our defensive record improved a lot in January and that coincides with winter pre season. In the second game back, against Sampdoria, Allegri established for once Zapata and Mexes as CB pair and we conceded 11 goals in 17 Serie A games since.
For reference in the same period - Juventus 8, Napoli 16, Fiore 24, Inter LOL.

8 clean sheets and only Fiore and Catania scored more than one goal against us.
That's a solid defensive record and not far from Ladri.

Surely it's not only about the CBs. Team overall improved in understanding, chemistry, Flamini and Muntari have positive impact defensively, etc.

But that we achieved that even without De Jong IMO is impressive and Galliani have a solid reason to consider that as the starting point... keep Mexes and buy Zapata. Bring a player who can fight for a spot with them.

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You are making too much sense, Sven.