Official Basketball thread(NBA; EuroLeague etc)

Saber Rider · Jul 2, 2013

Yeah, you're right about D'Antoni. He was exposed even in Europe, but I'll disagree with you about DH.

If that dude can't play nothing but a slow tempo and halfcourt bball without 2 perimeter defenders and one more top bigman + doesn't have big O game - he isn't as good as people make him looks like.

He played well in Magic, was their main O and D player, but in a small to medium team your weaknesses are well hidden and your strenghts are exposed. One can always say: I don't have supporting cast, I want a trade.

In a big team (and Lakers are the biggest team in entire bball), everything is exposed - both pluses and minuses. IMHO, he doesn't have room for moaning, because he didn't put everything he had on the table or that just wasn't good enough.

Senatore_M84 · Jul 2, 2013

Saber Rider said:
Yeah, you're right about D'Antoni. He was exposed even in Europe, but I'll disagree with you about DH.

If that dude can't play nothing but a slow tempo and halfcourt bball without 2 perimeter defenders and one more top bigman + doesn't have big O game - he isn't as good as people make him looks like.

He played well in Magic, was their main O and D player, but in a small to medium team your weaknesses are well hidden and your strenghts are exposed. One can always say: I don't have supporting cast, I want a trade.

In a big team (and Lakers are the biggest team in entire bball), everything is exposed - both pluses and minuses. IMHO, he doesn't have room for moaning, because he didn't put everything he had on the table or that just wasn't good enough.

no no he can totally play in an uptempo, that's not issue.

the rest of team can't. To play uptempo you need majority of your team to be young/athletic etc. Dwight prefers this system, problem is kobe, nash and artest and pau are not made for it in 2013. In 2007 probably they'd be fine

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i'll also mention he did just come off back surgery, and it showed. Now thats legit scary sign but reality

Saber Rider · Jul 2, 2013

Senatore_M84 said:
no no he can totally play in an uptempo, that's not issue.

the rest of team can't. To play uptempo you need majority of your team to be young/athletic etc. Dwight prefers this system, problem is kobe, nash and artest and pau are not made for it in 2013. In 2007 probably they'd be fine

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i'll also mention he did just come off back surgery, and it showed. Now thats legit scary sign but reality

Well that seems legit about Kobe, Artest, Nash and Gasol, but I wouldn't say that DH prefers fast tempo. Fast tempo bball kills centers nowdays. Way better players than DH12 couldn't play fast tempo or their knees went down as a result of that kind of bball.

I saw all 4 po games LAL have played this year. And I saw DH who was equally bad (or maybe a less better) in transition game as those oldies you always mention.

DH + playmaker that knows how to play p'n'r + 1 WC shooter + 1 lockdown defender + first O option = title contender. But that's lot of conditions, and right now no one has all gems + cap space for DH12.

Senatore_M84 · Jul 2, 2013

Saber Rider said:
Well that seems legit about Kobe, Artest, Nash and Gasol, but I wouldn't say that DH prefers fast tempo. Fast tempo bball kills centers nowdays. Way better players than DH12 couldn't play fast tempo or their knees went down as a result of that kind of bball.

I saw all 4 po games LAL have played this year. And I saw DH who was equally bad (or maybe a less better) in transition game as those oldies you always mention.

DH + playmaker that knows how to play p'n'r + 1 WC shooter + 1 lockdown defender + first O option = title contender. But that's lot of conditions, and right now no one has all gems + cap space for DH12.

Dwight's Orlando played reasonably uptempo

Not like dantoni suns or Houston but definitely not slow

For a big he runs really well. It's prolly his best tool on offense to be honest

Senatore_M84 · Jul 2, 2013

Per synergy - leagues top 5 pick and roll ball handlers-

Cp3
Parker
Westbrook
Curry
Harden

Saber Rider · Jul 2, 2013

@Senatore

Let's agree to disagree.

If DH is that good and if you think that he's a legitimate franchise player - I would like to see him @GSW. But if he disappoints...prepare to eat your own words.

And, BTW, no one is better than RR in p'n'r. After Stockton no other PG has shown that kind of PG's skill combination (court vision, assisting variety, timing, team game), IMHO.

Maybe it isn't detected by advanced stats, but pure eye can see that. RR (not CP3) is a perfect guy for p'n'r.

Senatore_M84 · Jul 2, 2013

Saber Rider said:
@Senatore

Let's agree to disagree.

If DH is that good and if you think that he's a legitimate franchise player - I would like to see him @GSW. But if he disappoints...prepare to eat your own words.

And, BTW, no one is better than RR in p'n'r. After Stockton no other PG has shown that kind of PG's skill combination (court vision, assisting variety, timing, team game), IMHO.

Maybe it isn't detected by advanced stats, but pure eye can see that. RR (not CP3) is a perfect guy for p'n'r.

rondo is a lot worse than all these guys in PnR. Don't get me wrong, he is an excellent ballhandler, but he doesn't generate more points.

These guys generate more points than him. If Rondo was that good his teams would score more like spurs/clip/warriors do.

Rondo can't shoot and regularly makes wrong play.

If a guy goes under on the pick and roll, the ballhandler needs to shoot. Rondo regularly passes up that shot and makes a worse pass, getting his team a shitty shot.

Remember one thing always a point guards job is not to pass the ball, it's to get his team the best shot possible. If that means he shots, its fine. Rondo's teams are always bad offensively, cause of his limitation.

He effects the game in a lot of ways, but nah... he's so many teirs below cp3 or parker

Senatore_M84 · Jul 2, 2013

Don't get me wrong. Rondo is good at it.

but his limitations make him worse at it than those guys listed.

i like rondo best in transiiton, cause his lack of a jumper doesn't matter and he picks em apart

i'm too lazy to continue this argument but this article sums up my observations-
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1869

pruiti is a good writer.

Saber Rider · Jul 2, 2013

He's a bad shooter, because his hands (palms) are too big.

But I do feel that he can operate p'n'r better than CP3 who is more of egomaniacal player than RR. The fact is: p'n'r depends probably in same level from big man as from PG. RR had in his career only Garnett as a top O force and in even he was past his prime or in aged version; CP3 had West, Griffin, Jordan. TP had Duncan, Nash had Amare and Nowitzki...

Senatore_M84 · Jul 2, 2013

Saber Rider said:
He's a bad shooter, because his hands (palms) are too big.

But I do feel that he can operate p'n'r better than CP3 who is more of egomaniacal player than RR. The fact is: p'n'r depends probably in same level from big man as from PG. RR had in his career only Garnett as a top O force and in even he was past his prime or in aged version; CP3 had West, Griffin, Jordan. TP had Duncan, Nash had Amare and Nowitzki...

garnett is better than every big you listed other than duncan. And you aren't mentioning have one of greatest shooters of all time running off screens attracting attention and a hall of fame wing scorer.

rondo has definitely had more to work w/ than anyone of these. He'd be really exposed w/o it because of his limitations.

CP3 is by no means an egomaniac, dunno where anyone gets that from. Clips are not really good. Blake is limited as hell at this point.

justhope · Jul 2, 2013

Senatore_M84 said:
garnett is better than every big you listed other than duncan. And you aren't mentioning have one of greatest shooters of all time running off screens attracting attention and a hall of fame wing scorer.

rondo has definitely had more to work w/ than anyone of these. He'd be really exposed w/o it because of his limitations.

CP3 is by no means an egomaniac, dunno where anyone gets that from. Clips are not really good. Blake is limited as hell at this point.

garnett is better than those guys combined

considering pnr amare during phoenix was exceptional, same with the rest of those guys, chandler, griffin etc

Dsav · Jul 2, 2013

The lakers hiring D'Antoni was a mistake. A stupid Jim buss decision. His reasoning, was he wants to bring back showtime to the lakers............ your point guard is 40. They should have hired Phil, that simple. If they hired Phil, Howard wouldn't even consider leaving. If the Lakers loose Dwight, i wont be upset if its to a team like GSW. Because then I'd know its all about winning. Plus the Lakers can do a S & T and get Harrison Barnes.......... that guy is a future all star

Dsav · Jul 3, 2013

Some movements going on. OKC lose Kevin Martin to the T'Wolves. Clippers trade Bledsoe to the suns in a three way trade with the bucks, get Dudley and jj redick.

Senatore_M84 · Jul 3, 2013

Durants contracts up in 2016

Westbrook in 2017

The way okc is conducting there business with cheap ownership I can't see them staying. Could be wrong okc is smart gm but their owners are broke and market sucks

Senatore_M84 · Jul 3, 2013

The media is annoying.

I feel bad for Dwight. This is what he's done. He is a free agent. He has taken meetings with teams he's interested in like all unemployed people. He wants to win, he has some good opportunities.

The media is one creating non-stop circus.

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I find it sad people criticize him OR Lebron for this. For being empowered and taking career into their own hands. It's like slave logic, they there drafted to a team, they never had control over it.

Senatore_M84 · Jul 3, 2013

I urge you ALL to read this-
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/60723/live-by-the-3-or-die

why 3 pointers matter, why spacing matters (yes as a former coach i get off at idea's like spacing and tactics)

See this is WHY you can't compare jordan to this era. Jordan played w/ no zone D's. Spurs played a pure pack the paint zone v. miami. He'd have struggled.

This approach has been horrid for those guys, as evidenced by the fact while the Heat won the Finals against the Spurs, San Antonio was the far better team when Wade was on the court.

The multifaceted effects of Wade's bad knees were a big part of that. He wasn't creating havoc, turnovers and fast-break points like normal. But he also can't shoot 3s, and spent a lot of the series standing without the ball, entirely unguarded behind the 3-point line, while his defender helped make sure Wade's teammates didn't get any easy points.

Bench Wade for a 3-point shooter like Ray Allen or Shane Battier, though, and the Heat could score again, as the Spurs looked like regular-season Heat opponents, in real distress, having to decide between giving up paint points or 3s. It's almost 24 feet from the bucket to a straightaway 3. Making defenders scramble that distance is a great way to get the defense distorted, which is likely to create an open look somewhere.

Wade, a career 29 percent 3-point shooter, didn't attempt a single 3 in these Finals. The Heat were outscored by 7.7 points per 100 possessions while Wade was on the court in the Finals -- the worst number on the team.

I can't remembver which one of you jobbin's said wade deserved mvp, but honestly he was downright horrid all series, and a liability.

miami was at their best w.o him on the floor.

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anyway it's reasons like this i cannot put rondo anywhere near an elite pg, and it's why Rondo's teams are alweays ranked in bottom 10 in offense in NBA.

He's such a liability cause of his limitations.

You don't need to be steph curry as a shooter, tony parker certainly isn't. But you have to have a respectable shot that defenses honor. Because if you don't they will pack paint on you and you get nothing of value

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for ex. Kobe, never shoots a high percentage on 3s.... mostly cause he takes some disgusting dog-shit shots, also cause he's a good shooter but not a marksmen. That said, if he's wide open he will make it. As a defense you ALWAYS have to honor his shot. You can't pack paint on him, way miami did on wade.

Madridista · Jul 3, 2013

Jordan could shoot threys.

And Kobe is the best shooter in the NBA, apart from Durant and Curry. you don't take into account the difficulty of shots, by your logic Dwight Howard is a good shooter because he has a good fg.

and Dwight is the biggest primadonna Ive ever seen in the nba.

Redman10 · Jul 3, 2013

Senatore_M84 said:
The media is annoying.

I feel bad for Dwight. This is what he's done. He is a free agent. He has taken meetings with teams he's interested in like all unemployed people. He wants to win, he has some good opportunities.

The media is one creating non-stop circus.

-

I find it sad people criticize him OR Lebron for this. For being empowered and taking career into their own hands. It's like slave logic, they there drafted to a team, they never had control over it.

I think most people criticize Lebron over the decision (1 hour long tv special) then leaving Cleveland. I completely agree with any player that wants to leave a team whether it futbol or basketball if the management is not surrounding him with necessary pieces for him to succeed ultimately wasting his prime years.

In Dwight case, it was the whole Orlando thing that got him criticize.

TavMania · Jul 3, 2013

Madridista said:
Can anyone explain why Knicks took Bargnani? such a weak player.

From a true Raps fan, GOd Bless for doing this! :lol:

TavMania · Jul 3, 2013

Senatore_M84 said:
so to sum up... the knicks are paying 33 milion to two below average PFs and will end up w/ Carmelo starting there in a small ball line up anyway

and the nets are paying 81+ million for a starting 5 whgich wont get past the second round (Zero chance they beat miami, indy or chicago healthy) and will likely have a luxury tax bill in realm of 100 mil next year with no draft picks in foreseeable future.

LOL New york basketball is run by idiots

Raps 1 - 0 Knicks :eek:

TavMania · Jul 3, 2013

Redman10 said:
That why there the Knicks.

Senatore_M84 · Jul 3, 2013

Madridista said:
Jordan could shoot threys.

And Kobe is the best shooter in the NBA, apart from Durant and Curry. you don't take into account the difficulty of shots, by your logic Dwight Howard is a good shooter because he has a good fg.

and Dwight is the biggest primadonna Ive ever seen in the nba.

MJ was alright at treys, ultimately it was a different era. Rule changes etc. no one shot as many threes as today. It's not to discount him, it's just different.

Odds are if chicago played today, they'd surround jordan with more shooters

kobe's a good shooter, but not anywhere near great. He's a great all around scorer with variety.

Dirk is definitely a better shooter, so is nash, so it allen.

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kobe's just really good at everything, as opposed to some guys who are really great at certain shots, and bad at others, he's pretty even from every spot on floor, except low post where he's best (closerto rim, higher percentage). but that said

That and... like dirk, durant, peirce (and a few guys im forgetting)- he can get a clean look off from anywhere, ie he knows how to seperate his body and square up. Curry, still struggles heavily with this cause he's small, which is why despite cp3's greatness.... your best player really can't be that small.

@degree of difficulty- stupid argument. They are all worth the same.

That's where MJ and Lebron separate from him in my opinion, willingess to recognize the bad shot and pass to open man. Or brute ability to get to spot they wanna.

Most temas when they guard kobe live with him shooting mid-rangers. He'll make sum but reality is, he's been pretty consistent 40% from there which isn't bad... but you'd rather kobe shoot 40% on mid range, then allow him in post or behind line

Redman10 · Jul 3, 2013

TavMania said:
From a true Raps fan, GOd Bless for doing this!

As a Knicks fan, my reaction is just :fp:

. Reminds me of the Isiah Thomas era.

I actually can't tell who is worst between us or brooklyn.

Madridista · Jul 3, 2013

Allen is a spot up shooter, Nash is not a volume shooter, Dirk is.. well tall as fuck

you have to take into account literally everything.

About degree of difficulty, the point is not if all baskets are worth the same (which is true) but again that you need to look beyond stats. 45% on the amount of contested against 50 on spot ups, or 70 on dunks, the 45% guy is the better shooter.

Anyway about Dwight, I think if he intends to leave Lakers he should at least give them the option of sign and trade. he owes that to the franchise if he isnt staying

Dsav · Jul 3, 2013

Dwight's a goner. He's going to Houston, I'm confident of that. He cant handle the bright lights and the expectations. Dwight is a free agent, he doesn't owe the Lakers anything, the lakers were well aware of this when trading for him and they decided to roll the dice because seriously who leaves the lakers? Sign and trade with houston? For who? I'd rather give him to GSW and get Bogut and barnes back, better than Asik and lin.

Dwight and harden trying to be Kobe/ Shaq 2.0. Lakers will do what they can this season without him and retool in free agency next year. The lakers have cap room, that's a dangerous combination, you see what they have been able to do in the past with next to nothing. Now they have cap space, we'll be fine without dwight.

Senatore_M84 · Jul 3, 2013

Madridista said:
Allen is a spot up shooter,

dude when did you start watching bball? he became a spot up shooter at like 34.

Ray allen was a stud in milwaukee. Almost took them tofinals multiple times

look at some these ridic shots. He SCHOOLED tmac-

ANYONE who saw Ray in his first 10-12 years would scoff at 'spot up' label. He had handles and great athleticism

Nash is not a volume shooter, Dirk is.. well tall as fuck you have to take into account literally everything.

About degree of difficulty, the point is not if all baskets are worth the same (which is true) but again that you need to look beyond stats. 45% on the amount of contested against 50 on spot ups, or 70 on dunks, the 45% guy is the better shooter.

utter garbage

better cause he takes worse shots? No. He's an idiot for taking bad shots.

Doesn't count cause he's taller? Are we back to unfair advantage of height? Lol. It it was THAT easy more tall players like bosh and garnett would shoot like him. They don't.

Dirk is extremely skilled and one of greatest shooters of all time. Bird level

Senatore_M84 · Jul 3, 2013

spot up shooter, lol

ray was sooo great for like 12 years.

even back then he wasn't as good an all around scorer as kobe. But he was one of best in league. 22-24 ppg, 4 assists, did it in every way possible etc.

you're just making up arguments to say kobe's a great shooter. He's good, not great shooter. He's a great all around scorer, his shootings inconsistent. Dirk is too tall :lol:

Madridista · Jul 3, 2013

Were not talking about decision making, just shooting ffs. Its really hard to say who is better shooter between Dirk, ray and kobe all things considered. I just mentioned Dirk's height as advantage over Kobe. hes an incredible shooter but best defenders are wings and he was always guarded by forwards unlike Kobe. As for Allen, I really didnt follow him that much pre Boston tbh. Did he even get in playoffs with Seattle? I remember Kobe once saying dont put me and him in the same sentence, I think it was before Boston lol

Congo Powers · Jul 3, 2013

great..celtics hire some 36 year old dork for coach

GREEAATT

Dsav · Jul 3, 2013

Congo Powers said:
great..celtics hire some 36 year old dork for coach

GREEAATT

Tanking for Wiggins haha

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