The MilanLab Thread

yes i recall milan being overly injury-plagued since i started following the team back when ancelotti was coaching

the only year we did not have multiple, significant injuries during a season was last year

Astafjevs said:

So many clueless idiots in here. This started way before Allegri, so drop the agenda and start looking at facts. Ancelotti had it (Favalli-Maldini in the centre of defence, anyone?), Leonardo had it, now Allegri has it.

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We need a proper manager to fix this problem - someone who want to bring his old and trusted staff with him to his new club, someone who has the confidence to make big changes within the club....like Conte did in Juve..and Mazzari seems to be doing in Inter.

I won't be surprised if Inter for once don't get into an injury nightmare this season.

80% injuries have been trauma (caused by collisions with others or other in-the-game factors) according to Allegri. Muscular injuries have been a normal number this year, and it would be presumptuous to blame MilanLab again.

On that note, I feel this thread name needs to be changed to something unbiased.

necromancer said:

^What possible facts could Allegri offer in return?

Allegri also has a position to think about. He's the manager of a widely followed club and his statements when dealing with such accusations will have to be curt and professional. He neatly implied there that the MilanLab doctors were professionals trying to do their job (which we have no reason to believe otherwise), while Pato should think about how he himself may have affected his health as well.

But we can have this discussion in the MilanLab thread.

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Continuing our discussion about MilanLab...

In my opinion...Allegri should at least worried with our doctors because Pato were having injury problems many times before. Pato was even flown abroad of Italy to received treatments. There should be doubts regarding MilanLab. Therefore after consulting with MilanLab, Allegri should know what Pato's problems were and he should have the facts that it was not the fault of MilanLab...after all, his job also depends on the capability of these doctors.

One more thing...now regarding Thiago Silva.
I don't think a professional doctor will allow someone, who has high possibility to get injured, to play in the field. Maybe Allegri is also at fault, but the doctors is more at fault because they allow Allegri to field the player. And I'm sure Allegri would respect the doctors' advice regarding a player can be used or not.

I think MilanLab policy should be changed. I think the policy of MilanLab is: if a player is above 70% fit, he can play on the field for maybe 80min...a bit gambling if I may say. Maybe we are doing this because he don't have enough quality players for backup...however, this will only risk the quality players to get injured. We gamble in this but usually lost.

Ian said:

Continuing our discussion about MilanLab...

In my opinion...Allegri should at least worried with our doctors because Pato were having injury problems many times before. Pato was even flown abroad of Italy to received treatments. There should be doubts regarding MilanLab. Therefore after consulting with MilanLab, Allegri should know what Pato's problems were and he should have the facts that it was not the fault of MilanLab...after all, his job also depends on the capability of these doctors.

One more thing...now regarding Thiago Silva.
I don't think a professional doctor will allow someone, who has high possibility to get injured, to play in the field. Maybe Allegri is also at fault, but the doctors is more at fault because they allow Allegri to field the player. And I'm sure Allegri would respect the doctors' advice regarding a player can be used or not.

I think MilanLab policy should be changed. I think the policy of MilanLab is: if a player is above 70% fit, he can play on the field for maybe 80min...a bit gambling if I may say. Maybe we are doing this because he don't have enough quality players for backup...however, this will only risk the quality players to get injured. We gamble in this but usually lost.

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First point about Allegri consulting with MilanLab docs. Of course he'd have done that. He would have had all the updates on Pato's situation. But it's an entirely different matter what he chooses to reveal to the press. Some issues are best buried quickly with the media, otherwise they'd go on a rampage with half-baked facts. He simply did that here. Good PR.

Thiago Silva case - Completely the coach's call. In retrospect, we know that Allegri may have taken the wrong call there.

Overall point about MilanLab recommendation about when players can play - Let us get one thing clear. MilanLab is fundamentally a research institute where advanced methods are developed for sports injuries and recovery. They do not take the call about when a player can be fielded and so on. They give data to the manager about a player's condition and the subsequent decisions are made by the manager and the board if required. So the decisions that you referred to as gambles will NOT be taken by the MilanLab nor would they have the authority to take those decisions.

necromancer said:

First point about Allegri consulting with MilanLab docs. Of course he'd have done that. He would have had all the updates on Pato's situation. But it's an entirely different matter what he chooses to reveal to the press. Some issues are best buried quickly with the media, otherwise they'd go on a rampage with half-baked facts. He simply did that here. Good PR.

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The facts that Pato gives are:
1. He has not been injured after moving.
2. Many players are injured playing with Milan.
It was indeed a good interview to defend the doctors. However, Allegri could just defending the doctors without knowing anything as Allegri did not stating any other fact to back his statement, unlike Pato.

“The treatment was different there. They do a lot of physical exercise, in the swimming pool, physiotherapy -- you end up doing 20 days of work in just one week, and it’s only normal that the body can’t cope.

“Milan have lots of injuries this year too, which shows that the muscular injuries I had weren’t my fault. I played one game, hurt myself, recovered and injured myself again. It’s the doctors and the excessive workload aimed at getting me back in action sooner.”

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For example...in an interview, I'm accusing someone of being a thief by giving some facts such as: motives and eye-witnesses. If the accused did not come up with another facts to debunk my accusations...and only saying that I was only making unjustified accusations, all the readers would definitely believe me that the accused is guilty.

Let us get one thing clear. MilanLab is fundamentally a research institute where advanced methods are developed for sports injuries and recovery. They do not take the call about when a player can be fielded and so on. They give data to the manager about a player's condition and the subsequent decisions are made by the manager and the board if required. So the decisions that you referred to as gambles will NOT be taken by the MilanLab nor would they have the authority to take those decisions.

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Data given by doctors to the manager mostly regarding how they should do exercise to help recovery (not to make them hurt), can they be called to play on the field, how fit they are, etc. Surely not their cholesterol level or SGOT/SGPT as Allegri is not a doctor.

For example Pato, if the doctors told Allegri for Pato not to do heavy exercises, I'm sure Allegri do not tell Pato to do it. And Pato said he was given exercises that are too hard when he was not fit, surely it's the fault of the doctors.

Doctors do not directly make the call to who are going to be fielded...agreed. However, if they made wrong diagnose, surely this also their fault or rushed to announce recovery. So, the gamble, that I was referring to, can be from Allegri or the doctors...Allegri and the doctors have different responsibilities.

You cannot blame the doctors for Silva being fielded...but you can blame the doctors for suggesting Allegri that it's ok to field Silva.

Jean Pierre Meersseman, founder of the renowned Milan lab, is bringing his injury-preventing methods to England

And our mathematicians and engineers have developed a formula which has a high success rate of predicting and managing injuries.

But what of his role at Milan? Surely given their form over the past 18 months, they need fixing most of all? "They stopped the Milan Lab project three years ago," he sighs. "It's still being applied in the athletics sector but not in the medical sector. And we've had more injuries in the past two years than in the eight years before that put together."

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www.theguardian.com

So, now it seems there's not MilanLab according to Jean Pierre Meersseman. However, there is this:

MilanLab provides technological support within the decision making process that aims to provide the best possible management of individual well being and health.

Prevention and systematic analysis are the basis on which MilanLab is built. Prevention, which is understood as the implementation of a series of actions employed now to avoid injury in the future; analysis which makes reference to a widely accepted concept, present also in the defintion of health by the World Health Organisation: “Health is the state of total physical, mental and social wellbeing and not the absence of disease or illness.”

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http://www.acmilan.com/en/club/milan_lab

And if our squads are having another major injuries problem...surely it's the fault of the doctors.

^About the entire Pato angle - I won't consider anything that Pato says as admissible in this debate because he is an injured party and it is in his interests to blame Milan's doctors. I'm not saying he may be wrong, but that's the natural thing he would do. We don't know whether Milan got his treatment wrong or whether, as Allegri insinuated, Pato should ask himself why he was repeatedly injured.

Also, like I've said already, there's no reason for Allegri to justify Milan's doctors against Pato as he simply went for the more effective strategy of not giving much heed to Pato's words. If you call me a thief, my media response to that will depend on your credibility. If I feel I'm better off ignoring you, I'll do that.

Meersemann and MilanLab - Legit point there that we may be cost-cutting with the medical system. Since we are cost-cutting in almost every visible structure to fans, it is logical to assume we are doing the same in things like MilanLab as well. I agree - this may have reduced the effectiveness of the establishment.

Doctors and recommendations - They would tell Allegri that a player is 70% ready or semi-fit or whatever, they may present the data in a layman form - but the final call will always be the management's. That's why it is foolish to blame the doctors for players being rushed back.

We did have issues with the doctors couple of years back and that's why we made a change at the top, and then again another change when the first one didn't work. But since Tavana was brought in to head the medical sector, things have stabilized again. Make no mistake - if the management felt the doctors were giving them wrong recommendations, they'd have been fired long back. No one loves shifting blame as much as managers do.

Overall - this comes back to the same argument. MilanLab is a scientific structure. They don't make executive decisions. Cost-cutting and other decisions are made by the management.

necromancer said:

^About the entire Pato angle - I won't consider anything that Pato says as admissible in this debate because he is an injured party and it is in his interests to blame Milan's doctors. I'm not saying he may be wrong, but that's the natural thing he would do. We don't know whether Milan got his treatment wrong or whether, as Allegri insinuated, Pato should ask himself why he was repeatedly injured.

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I know Pato is also injury prone, however with the fact that many squads member also injured...there should be something wrong with the doctors.

Also, like I've said already, there's no reason for Allegri to justify Milan's doctors against Pato as he simply went for the more effective strategy of not giving much heed to Pato's words. If you call me a thief, my media response to that will depend on your credibility. If I feel I'm better off ignoring you, I'll do that.

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I meant that both have the same credibility, we are talking about Allegri and Pato...they both have the same credibility. Therefore, someone with more facts or proofs are more credible according to many. However, I know, in this case it's difficult to be sure on which is right, Pato or Allegri. Though, the injuries that we are having cannot be ignored.

Meersemann and MilanLab - Legit point there that we may be cost-cutting with the medical system. Since we are cost-cutting in almost every visible structure to fans, it is logical to assume we are doing the same in things like MilanLab as well. I agree - this may have reduced the effectiveness of the establishment.

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Other smaller teams don't need Meersemann and MilanLab to not having problems like we are going through.

Doctors and recommendations - They would tell Allegri that a player is 70% ready or semi-fit or whatever, they may present the data in a layman form - but the final call will always be the management's. That's why it is foolish to blame the doctors for players being rushed back.

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Easy question: if the doctor thinks that it is okay to field the player and then that player got injured because of the same problem...is that Allegri fault or the doctor?

We did have issues with the doctors couple of years back and that's why we made a change at the top, and then again another change when the first one didn't work. But since Tavana was brought in to head the medical sector, things have stabilized again. Make no mistake - if the management felt the doctors were giving them wrong recommendations, they'd have been fired long back. No one loves shifting blame as much as managers do.

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It depends, therefore I was saying there can be two parties that are doing the gambling...Allegri and the doctor. If the doctor is told to rush the recovery, the doctor is doing the call. If Allegri was told, he's not 100% fit and dangerous to play, it's Allegri's call. So there can be some miss-communication here between Allegri and the doctors.

However, I'm more are blaming the doctor. The doctor's responsibility is to keep our players healthy, doctors are mandatory to be in the training ground with the coach. They have been working with Allegri for about 4 years, so they know what recommendation they should give Allegri in order for the squads not to get the major injuries problem again.

Overall - this comes back to the same argument. MilanLab is a scientific structure. They don't make executive decisions. Cost-cutting and other decisions are made by the management.

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Everything bad that happens is basically management's fault. Wrong coach, buy bad players, less fund for transfer, less fund for medical, etc. But if we are having major injuries problem even though we have doctors...whose fault can it be? Allegri? He's not a doctor. Galliani? Maybe he cannot even do CPR. Each staff in Milan has their own responsibility. Doctors are responsible for the players' health, if the players are having major health issues (not just one or two players), I believe it's the doctors' fault.

Sure, one can blame the management for not having the latest best equipments that money can buy for the treatment. But again like I said above, if other clubs that have lesser funds than us don't have major health problems like us, it's quite clear whose fault that is. That is unless Allegri likes to ignore the doctors' advices and keep fielding injured players...which I'm sure not the case.

^Everything in that post was answered by my previous ones. So I don't see the point that you're trying to make now..

necromancer said:

^Everything in that post was answered by my previous ones. So I don't see the point that you're trying to make now..

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What I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, the doctor team is at least 60-80% to blame for Pato, Silva, or our major injuries problems, while the others are either Allegri or the management. You mostly blame our management or Allegri for the problems...whether it's cost-cutting, telling the doctors to rush the recovery, or All's decision to field not completely healed player.

So, my arguments are...

Regarding cost-cutting:
Other smaller teams, that have less fund, are able to not have the health issues that quite often we are having, especially 2 year ago. So, I believe cost-cutting is not to blame.

Regarding rush the recoveries:
If the doctors are rushed to heal the players by Allegri and keep getting injured again and again, they should know better, as I'm sure they don't want the players to get injured.

Regarding All's decision to field injured player:
This can be the reason for one or two players got hurt. But not for the disaster health issues the we are having...after looking that many injured players, the doctors should say something to Allegri. And like I said, one cannot blame the doctors for Silva being fielded...but one can blame the doctors for suggesting Allegri that it's ok to field Silva.

Therefore, I believe our major problem with injuries is mostly the doctor's fault.

^No, you drew the wrong conclusion from my posts. I don't blame anyone for our injuries. As I said, 80% were trauma related injuries. That's pure chance.

The specific instances regarding Silva and Pato is where I say management is more responsible than doctors in rushing a player when he's 70% or whatever. There is a hierarchy for every decision. Regardless of what the docs tell them, the management takes the final call. And if they think the docs gave them wrong info, they fire the docs. We've done that in the past, we are not doing that now - that probably means the docs are working just fine. I said all this already.

And even if the management rushed in a player when he was 70%, I dont blame them if they were risking it for a big match. Sometimes, some risky decisions have to be taken which may go wrong. That's how it works.

necromancer said:

^No, you drew the wrong conclusion from my posts. I don't blame anyone for our injuries. As I said, 80% were trauma related injuries. That's pure chance.

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Oh, my bad. If that's the case, maybe we need to reduce the intensity of our training. And if this is true, I guess, Allegri is the one to blame for our injuries crisis...we can't be that unlucky. However, the worst crisis was Allegri's second season, last season was ok, and this season had just begun...let's see how this season goes.

The specific instances regarding Silva and Pato is where I say management is more responsible than doctors in rushing a player when he's 70% or whatever. There is a hierarchy for every decision. Regardless of what the docs tell them, the management takes the final call. And if they think the docs gave them wrong info, they fire the docs. We've done that in the past, we are not doing that now - that probably means the docs are working just fine. I said all this already.

And even if the management rushed in a player when he was 70%, I dont blame them if they were risking it for a big match. Sometimes, some risky decisions have to be taken which may go wrong. That's how it works.

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About Silva I can understand if it's management fault on that one time for fielding Silva while he was not fit. However, for Pato, I think it's different.
He got injured on any match, not only big match...also Pato was sent abroad to receive treatment.

However, since we had problem only that one season, I'm gonna give our doctors the benefit of the doubt...so, let's see what are the fates of our players, hopefully the crisis doesn't continue.

Does somebody know injury history in cagliari when Allegri as their coach??

Maybe someone could make a comparison

mummila said:

Does somebody know injury history in cagliari when Allegri as their coach??

Maybe someone could make a comparison

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I also wanna know this. Does someone have a comparison?

Can we get an injury update:

How Long are these players out for?:

NDJ:

El Shaaraway:

Balotelli:

Mattia De Sciglio:

ELMAGO99 said:

Can we get an injury update:

How Long are these players out for?:

NDJ:

El Shaaraway:

Balotelli:

Mattia De Sciglio:

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NDJ ain't injured, he was suspended for accumulated yellow cards

El Sha, about 2 weeks

Balo still to be confirmed, probably a week

DeS, started regular training yesterday, probably won't start vs Barca, but we could see him later on

^^^ Thanks

There's a thread on this forum dedicated for injury news

MilanLab - News about Injuries and Suspensions