Official Basketball thread(NBA; EuroLeague etc)

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

Sage said:
tbf heat deserved nothing but hate after their showing in game 3

they did good last night, you just never know when bosh and wade will turn up.

not really tho.

no one is trolling when any other team loses a game. This series had 6-7 written before it started.

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

leaf said:
Pippen? Jason-the-only-thing-I-can-hit-is-my-wife-Kidd?

Seriously I think you just try to have these controversial views to flex your debate muscles

Redman10 said:
I understand you dislike Kobe and everything but this is ridiculous even for your standards. I mean have you even seen the likes of Bob Cousy play. Some of the players on that list would say you having a piss.

i think the point of the game is to WIN

if your point is to win, it's absolutely indisputeable Lebron, Pippen and Kidd>>>> Kobe.

look what they all did w/ no talent. Look what kobe did w/ no talent. They made everyone bette won 50-60 games, went to finals in lebron and kidd's case with NOTHING.

Kobe missed playoffs IN HIS PRIME, and followed it w/ multiple years of 8 seed spankings.

Amazing individual player, but not as special as soom make em seem.

What kidd did w/ new jersey, superseeds any kobe accomplishments. Same could be said for cleveland w/ lebron, or pippen in chicago w/o jordan

THERES MORE TO BBALL THAN SHOOTING, give me the elite defending triple double machines over the guy who hunts his own shot all dasy

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

say what you want, all 3 are betterall-around players than kobe. All did A LOT more with less than kobe.... and by that i mean WINNING. In lebron's case, he's better at everything than a prime kobe (remind me when kobe ever shot 40% from 3s, over 50% from field, he's hit more game winners and a higher percentage than kobe over 10 years... a fact)

i value all that over what kobe brings, who is undoubtedly a great player in his ownright, but could never get a team a #1 seed or to conference finals or anything on his own.

leaf · Jun 14, 2013

The concept of an "all round player" is horribly overrated. Senatore, you really need to stop using this as any sort of argument for anything.

There are footballers who are GREAT at attacking AND defending....but that doesn't make them better than some who are simply exceptional at one or a few things.....Shevchenko was one of the most complete forwards I've ever seen.....good shot, footballing IQ, he had the strength, speed aerial ability....perhaps he wasn't the best or most skillful dribbler but he beat MANY defenders off the dribble.....yet he was INFERIOR to Ronaldo....who wasn't that good in the air after he left PSV, didn't take that many free-kicks, didn't play on the wing etc.

Ronaldo was SIMPLY more brilliant and was the most capable of using the things he was EXCEPTIONAL at to win games.

In this light I think there can be no argument against Kobe's sheer brilliance....and I also think it's fair to say that his brilliance FAR FAR surpasses Jason Kidd, Pippen...even Sir Charles.

LeBron is debateable....but I can't see how or why you choose to ignore the context of LeBron's success.....by joining forces with TWO superstars....factors heavily into the discussion.

Isn't it fair to say that Magic was more of an all-rounder than MJ? Did that make him better in any way?

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

Basketball is different than football. Players are expected to do all things

I don't expect a guarded to rebound like a center but he should rebound

Simple fact is Kobe's effect on helping a team win is LESS. They are all greater at that. Look at teams Kidd and Lebron dragged to finals. Kobe missed playoffs in his prime. And was 8 seed other teams. Lebron won over 60 twice with a crappy Cleveland. They won 19 after he left.

Pippen led bulls to 55 wins and conference finals WITHOUT MJ. What did Kobe do without a prime shaq or the 3 headed all star big men combo?

I'm dead serious when I say he was NEVER the best player on a title team. Pau was better in second 3 pear despite scoring less. Shaq it goes without saying. Shaq averaged 30/20 in finals. 3 finals MVP. All time 4th quarter points leader in a finals (averAge). Those are simple facts

I could care less if Kobe plays with more flair or swag. Has more skills. He is not top 10

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

Magic wasnt more all around than mj.

Magic didnt defend.

Kobe might be more al around than Kidd and pippen when you factor shooting range but he wasn't as effective as a winner. Wins>all

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

IF you want to talk all around its clearly MJ with Lebron Getting reaaaaaallly close

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

I just don't get wade...

for a month+ he's look physically done. I mean BARELY able to dunk

And then last night, he had the euro step to jump of the bad knee and throw down a dunk.

-

Anyway this game wasn't won by lebron or wade or bosh's offense. They forced 19 turnovers..

So far this series has been defined by defense and turnovers. Team which turns it over less has won every game

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

Wade-

only 3rd 20+ point playoff game (once v. pacers, once v. milwaukee), and first 30 point game since march 2

Only Bosh's second 20/10 game of playoffs.

Congo Powers · Jun 14, 2013

Senatore_M84 said:
Anyway this game wasn't won by lebron or wade or bosh's offense. They forced 19 turnovers..

So far this series has been defined by defense and turnovers. Team which turns it over less has won every game

+1

simple

a fantastic fantastic series

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

so much good stuff on this play. The manu pass is sexy

and then Bron's block on Duncan :eek:

That's a 7 foot legend he took down

Congo Powers · Jun 14, 2013

leaf said:
The concept of an "all round player" is horribly overrated. Senatore, you really need to stop using this as any sort of argument for anything.

There are footballers who are GREAT at attacking AND defending....but that doesn't make them better than some who are simply exceptional at one or a few things.....Shevchenko was one of the most complete forwards I've ever seen.....good shot, footballing IQ, he had the strength, speed aerial ability....perhaps he wasn't the best or most skillful dribbler but he beat MANY defenders off the dribble.....yet he was INFERIOR to Ronaldo....who wasn't that good in the air after he left PSV, didn't take that many free-kicks, didn't play on the wing etc.

Ronaldo was SIMPLY more brilliant and was the most capable of using the things he was EXCEPTIONAL at to win games.

In this light I think there can be no argument against Kobe's sheer brilliance....and I also think it's fair to say that his brilliance FAR FAR surpasses Jason Kidd, Pippen...even Sir Charles.

LeBron is debateable....but I can't see how or why you choose to ignore the context of LeBron's success.....by joining forces with TWO superstars....factors heavily into the discussion.

Isn't it fair to say that Magic was more of an all-rounder than MJ? Did that make him better in any way?

on a serious note.....sebastian janikowski is the ronaldo of cricket

leaf · Jun 14, 2013

Senatore_M84 said:
Magic wasnt more all around than mj.

Magic didnt defend.

Kobe might be more al around than Kidd and pippen when you factor shooting range but he wasn't as effective as a winner. Wins>all

Wow. Just wow. I knew I should have stfu-ed :fp:

Not that I care for you to agree, but you do know that Magic once played fucking CENTER for the Lakers....that's right sky hook shots and all
magic career stats: APG 11.2 RPG 7.2 PPG 19.5 (NBA all time leader in assists)

Jordan was a great player no doubt...but Magic was magic because he could do it all

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

leaf said:
Wow. Just wow. I knew I should have stfu-ed

Not that I care for you to agree, but you do know that Magic once played fucking CENTER for the Lakers....that's right sky hook shots and all
magic career stats: APG 11.2 RPG 7.2 PPG 19.5 (NBA all time leader in assists)

Jordan was a great player no doubt...but Magic was magic because he could do it all

do you even acknowledge defense?

ive posted 100 times about 42 point game? What do you consider all around? First off.... his size allowed him to play more positions (same w/ lebron btw)

But when I say all-around, i'm talking ability to do everything.

Magic playing Center doesn't make him more all around.

MJ could shoot from distance. MAgic didn't have a 3 point shot.

MJ could defend at an elite level. MAgic was usually put on a guy in corner (played no D)

Both MJ and Magic rebounded and passed at elite levels FOR their position

Both scored very efficiently

-

So how is he more all around?

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

stockton is nba all-time assist leader

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

YES DEFENSE MATTERS

Magic couldn't shoot from range. MJ could.

justhope · Jun 14, 2013

Senatore_M84 said:
Basketball is different than football. Players are expected to do all things

I don't expect a guarded to rebound like a center but he should rebound

Simple fact is Kobe's effect on helping a team win is LESS. They are all greater at that. Look at teams Kidd and Lebron dragged to finals. Kobe missed playoffs in his prime. And was 8 seed other teams. Lebron won over 60 twice with a crappy Cleveland. They won 19 after he left.

Pippen led bulls to 55 wins and conference finals WITHOUT MJ. What did Kobe do without a prime shaq or the 3 headed all star big men combo?

I'm dead serious when I say he was NEVER the best player on a title team. Pau was better in second 3 pear despite scoring less. Shaq it goes without saying. Shaq averaged 30/20 in finals. 3 finals MVP. All time 4th quarter points leader in a finals (averAge). Those are simple facts

I could care less if Kobe plays with more flair or swag. Has more skills. He is not top 10

Congo Powers · Jun 14, 2013

lets talk about shaq pls

if i was a GM and there was an all time draft im taking shaq #1 no question in my mind..no hesitation whatsoever

leaf · Jun 14, 2013

Senatore_M84 said:
do you even acknowledge defense?

ive posted 100 times about 42 point game? What do you consider all around? First off.... his size allowed him to play more positions (same w/ lebron btw)

But when I say all-around, i'm talking ability to do everything.

Magic playing Center doesn't make him more all around.

MJ could shoot from distance. MAgic didn't have a 3 point shot.

MJ could defend at an elite level. MAgic was usually put on a guy in corner (played no D)

Both MJ and Magic rebounded and passed at elite levels FOR their position

Both scored very efficiently

-

So how is he more all around?

Well magic really didn't attempt many 3's but he still had more or less the same 3pt 30% vs Jordan's 33% ...not much of a difference

Yes I agree about MJ's defense but you need to understand that Magic played well everywhere...to me that is the definition of versatile.

for a 6'-9" guy to play pg as well as he did and then to play the other roles as well is impressive.....That's also why I like Dirk Nowitzki :cool:

Sod-Lod · Jun 14, 2013

ahhhh

Congo Powers · Jun 14, 2013

leaf said:
for a 6'-9" guy to play pg as well as he did and then to play the other roles as well is impressive.....That's also why I like Dirk Nowitzki

you must like lebron as well then!

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

leaf said:
Well magic really didn't attempt many 3's but he still had more or less the same 3pt 30% vs Jordan's 33% ...not much of a difference

Yes I agree about MJ's defense but you need to understand that Magic played well everywhere...to me that is the definition of versatile.

for a 6'-9" guy to play pg as well as he did and then to play the other roles as well is impressive.....That's also why I like Dirk Nowitzki

don't get me wrong, i like magic, and to a degree i wonder if magic at his peak> MJ. prolly not, but you could argue, level is so high up there... it's pretty indistinguishable (despite doing it in different ways)

MJ's 3% is kinda killed by fact he couldn't when he was younger. He shot 37% 3 year average in 2nd 3 peat. On basically 3.5 attempts per game which is a lot.

Also, when we talk shooting, gotta consider MJ had a great mid-range game. Magic has a set shot from about 15 he mastered later on, but really wasn't a shooter.

and again D... MJ is among 10 best wing defenders of all time, Magic.... eh he acknowledges he wasn't a defender. His job was to hide onweakest offensive player crash the board and lead the fast break (and it was BEAUTIFUL)

-

Magic was very versitile but a lot it's down to height. We should note, one year MJ played PG... averaged 32, 8 and 8. Later on he played Sf. He could play whole perimeter. And really phil's triangle.... wasn't exactly positions on perimeter.

That's prolly my fav thing about current heat. It's positionless team. Which has it's downside... and puts an extreme amount of defensive and offensive pressur on lebron

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

i do actually think if healthy... 2012 usa team could compete with 1992

of course 2012 was missing dwight, bosh, rose, wade.

but if you had full team i like chances of it v. them. It'd be cool.

Magic, MJ, Pippen, Barkley, Robinson v. CP3, Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Dwight.

Granted dwight aint gonna give you shit on O comparative, it's not like he'd be needed to do much more than rebound. 1992 was probably better (bar outside shooting) still i think it'd be one of those, they play 7 times, 1 team wins 4, other wins 3

leaf · Jun 14, 2013

Congo Powers said:
you must like lebron as well then!

Yeah I do...I got cussed out by the old guys on work because I told them that LeBron is approaching MJ's greatness

But LeBron is not on MJ's level.....he's almost there but MJ is probably the only player I've ever seen to be able to pull out epic performances at random....sick? Down by a ton? Team mates playing utter and complete shit? No problem

I agree with Senatore that dragging Cleveland to the finals was a HUGE feat....but even Iverson (my fav. player after Jordan) did that too

Senatore_M84 · Jun 14, 2013

i love barkley, lol. fatty

Sage · Jun 15, 2013

Redman10 · Jun 15, 2013

Sage said:

leaf · Jun 15, 2013

Sage said:

OMG

I can die a happy man now :proud:

Axl · Jun 15, 2013

Congo Powers said:
lets talk about shaq pls

if i was a GM and there was an all time draft im taking shaq #1 no question in my mind..no hesitation whatsoever

Same here, there will never be another one like him. In his prime, having him in your team was basically unfair. Pretty much a cheat code for winning, there was just no way to deal with him. Your entire team would be in foul trouble cause there was no other way to contain him down low, single coverage and he scores on every possession, put help on him and shooters have open shots all night.

I'm thinking about how would a prime Shaq do against today's centers. Probably drop 40/20 on any of them if he really wanted to. Dwight, who's the benchmark today, can't hold a candle to him.

"I make the game easy. Double and triple me, I'll kick it out to you for a wide open shot. I'll add years to your career."

Madridista · Jun 15, 2013

Imagine if he could shoot free throws :eek:

Yao could have come close to him, shame about the injuries.

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