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Old 27-09-2012, 15:29   #241
Senatore_M84
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Originally Posted by ELMAGO99 View Post
So you prefer:

--Monty----De Jong---Ambro-----

to

Monty---De Jong----Boateng

?

no no.

i said only v. very strong teams who we are worried about attacking us.


I'd say in 80% of fixtures I prefer one with boateng.


@ my 3-4-3... it's ultra risky AND we would need a lot of practice.... because it's a completely different idea to what we've done.

Also the defense scares me. It makes me wish we had thiago, who IMO is a natural sweeper. Or even Nesta, who can easily play it


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Only Milan can punish it's own fans by qualifying for CL. I'm off to sleep, another year wasted. When will this fucker be fired..
#RnB
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Old 27-09-2012, 15:45   #242
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Originally Posted by Senatore_M84 View Post
posted this in match thread-
http://forum.acmilan-online.com/show...postcount=1078

finny how i mentioned this stuff a month ago . Me and Allegri, he knows whats up


The other thing I want to see us work on but really don't think will happen is perhaps a true 3-4-3

--El shaarawy--Pazzo--Robinho
Urby--Montolivo--De Jong--Abate
----Acerbi--Mexes--Bonera

And then of course a 3-5-2 where 1 of the forwards is dropped for boateng or even nocerino.

It can work, if we get effective pressing out of el shaarawy, pazzini and robinho, which all have shown capability of.
3 center defense back with our slow CBs is risk in counter attack mode.

We are lacking for creating sentences on the last third, and also connecting the sentence from midfield to Forward zone too second third; I believe the cooperating between Prince, Binho, SES92, Furby and Monty, as all of them, can make a great footballing style IF AL find the chemistry there with help of the players too.

As I posted before:

4-2-3-1: against strong team

--------------------ABI--------------------
--Abate---------Zap---Ace----------Anto-- /Bon /Mex /Anto
-----------Monty----------DJ-------------- /Ambro as sub
-------Prince-------SES------Furby-------- /Binho if he is fine / NOC "for defensing role"
-------------------PAZZ------------------- /Pato if he is fine

or 4-4-2: against ordinary team

--------------------ABI--------------------
--Abate---------Zap---Ace---------0-DSG-- /Bon /Mex /Anto
-------------Monty----------DJ------------- /Ambro as sub
---------Prince-----------------Furby------- / NOC "for defensing role"
--------------------------SES-------------- /Binho if he is fine
----------------PAZZ---------------------- /Pato if he is fine

Last edited by Sod-Lod; 27-09-2012 at 16:07.
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Old 27-09-2012, 15:55   #243
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we should look at our team and then play 4 3 1 2 or 4 2 1 1 2 why this second formation with 2 dm s like de jong and muntari we could be well organized and we simple cant play 4 3 3 with likes urby and others simple we have lwf but no rw at alllll and we should play


------------------------------------abi---------------------------
abate-----------------mexes-----------------zapata/acerbi------------de sceglio

--------------------de jong--------------------muntari-------------
--------------------------------montolivo--------------------

-------------------------------boateng-------------------
--------------------------------------------ell--------------
-----------------------------pato---------------
simple best formation couse you can all say play 3 at back or with 3 forward but it is not good when you have no rw or almost never played 3 at back .
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Old 27-09-2012, 16:26   #244
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Problem with 3-4-3 is...2 things:
1) Berlusconi and the 3 man d.
2) Our defense, we don't have anyone there that looks like a sweeper, and and its a relatively new defense (on the other hand one can say that the fact that its relatively new, makes it easier to introduce a 3 men d. concept, but still).


4-3-3 seems to be our way with this team, yeah I don't mind a more defensive 4-3-3 vs big teams either, because again our defense is relatively new, having a less defensive oriented midfield could and 3 guys upfront that don't track much...we're screwed.


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Old 27-09-2012, 17:07   #245
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Yes, I agree with that opinion. 3-men defence is too risky with our players at the moment. While 4-3-3 suits them perfectly.


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Old 27-09-2012, 17:36   #246
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zapata potentially our best option for sweeper.
he was everywhere vs udine.


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Old 27-09-2012, 23:43   #247
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Urby and El Shaarawy did a fine job tracking the Cagliari fullbacks last game.
To the point that one could argue that we defended with four in midfield, cause there was always one extra forward defending one side of the midfield.

We really need this work rate for the 4-3-3 to work.
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Old 28-09-2012, 00:39   #248
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
Urby and El Shaarawy did a fine job tracking the Cagliari fullbacks last game.
To the point that one could argue that we defended with four in midfield, cause there was always one extra forward defending one side of the midfield.

We really need this work rate for the 4-3-3 to work.
pretty much this.

it's why 4-2-fantasia never worked.

it's not like you can't use that system (though it's infinitely harder)... but you better be getting full team defensive work and it's possible unrealistic to find perfect players to work that hard in both aspects.


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Only Milan can punish it's own fans by qualifying for CL. I'm off to sleep, another year wasted. When will this fucker be fired..
#RnB
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Old 28-09-2012, 00:48   #249
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Originally Posted by Senatore_M84 View Post
pretty much this.

it's why 4-2-fantasia never worked.

it's not like you can't use that system (though it's infinitely harder)... but you better be getting full team defensive work and it's possible unrealistic to find perfect players to work that hard in both aspects.
You need to press strong high in the pitch for that to work... We do it occasionally, we get better when the team hit top form, but you can't rely on that with those players. We need to get back to shape to defend.

Besides our team concede too much for the opponent. For whatever reason this is a team very prone to mistakes.
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Old 28-09-2012, 01:01   #250
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
You need to press strong high in the pitch for that to work... We do it occasionally, we get better when the team hit top form, but you can't rely on that with those players. We need to get back to shape to defend.

Besides our team concede too much for the opponent. For whatever reason this is a team very prone to mistakes.
it has to do with style we play. We try to attack. Allegri knows if he goes cattenaccio he'll be fired ASAP. Berlusconi will not stand for it.

When you do that you lose shape MUCH easier.


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Only Milan can punish it's own fans by qualifying for CL. I'm off to sleep, another year wasted. When will this fucker be fired..
#RnB
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Old 28-09-2012, 02:08   #251
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Milan playing counterattack?! Lulz. People are aware of Milan's philosophy, right?


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Old 28-09-2012, 02:11   #252
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We might as well write-off this season and go full on kamikaze attack. Leonardo styles. No fear. The current crop need to grow some balls and fight. We are Milan!


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Old 28-09-2012, 02:27   #253
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Originally Posted by crazy4milan View Post
Problem with 3-4-3 is...2 things:
1) Berlusconi and the 3 man d.
2) Our defense, we don't have anyone there that looks like a sweeper, and and its a relatively new defense (on the other hand one can say that the fact that its relatively new, makes it easier to introduce a 3 men d. concept, but still).


4-3-3 seems to be our way with this team, yeah I don't mind a more defensive 4-3-3 vs big teams either, because again our defense is relatively new, having a less defensive oriented midfield could and 3 guys upfront that don't track much...we're screwed.
I don't think the 3-man defense is a problem. In my eyes, the defense isn't the problem at all, it's the midfield which is lacking in the technical aspect. I mean, look at the team Fiorentina have constructed; their midfield is brilliant.

You know what I don't understand? Milan have the highest wage bill out of all teams in Serie A and we're unable to construct a brilliant side. When I look at what teams of the caliber of Napoli, Udinese and Fiorentina, in terms of fiscal availability, have created, I'm left bewildered. To put this into perspective, Udinese spend slightly over a sixth of what Milan spend and Napoli just under half. Serious questions need to be asked. The management are using the economic situation as a smokescreen to cover up their inability to operate this club properly.


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Old 28-09-2012, 06:08   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven View Post
Urby and El Shaarawy did a fine job tracking the Cagliari fullbacks last game.
To the point that one could argue that we defended with four in midfield, cause there was always one extra forward defending one side of the midfield.

We really need this work rate for the 4-3-3 to work.
The role I'm most curious about is that of Traore's last match... and eventually Boateng's I guess.

When El Shaarawy and Urby dropped back to defend, Traore was often the furthest forward midfielder. It then looked a classic 4-4-1-1 with Traore behind Pazzini.

This'll look much better when with Boateng.

Like I've said, my biggest objection to us playing counter-attacking football is that our defence is not good enough to absorb pressure from a half-decent attack. But then, counters can be started even from the middle of the pitch.

Off the ball, if we move to a 4-4-1-1 from the 4-2-1-3, Boateng and Pazzini will be well placed to finish counters started by one of the midfielders winning possession back. It is a good technique and I think Allegri has that in mind by playing the 3rd central midfielder higher up the pitch when the wing forwards drop back to defend.


----------Monty----De Jong-----
--------------Boateng---------

--Robinho-----Pazzini------El Shaarawy

Which turns into -

---Robinho---Monty---De Jong---El Shaarawy
--------------------Boateng-----------

---------------------Pazzini---------------


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Last edited by necromancer; 28-09-2012 at 06:11.
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Old 28-09-2012, 09:09   #255
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The role I'm most curious about is that of Traore's last match... and eventually Boateng's I guess.

When El Shaarawy and Urby dropped back to defend, Traore was often the furthest forward midfielder. It then looked a classic 4-4-1-1 with Traore behind Pazzini.

This'll look much better when with Boateng.
It was even more clear after the subs... Constant was playing like an AM on the left, alway forward of the line with De Jong and Ambro. They also had no fixed role, both defending center or right and covering the left. Though at this point Milan was one man up (so the change to a 4-2-1-3 of sorts).

Allegri must be changing to a double pivot, or at least to a lopsided three man midfield.
Monty look for the ball, so he drops more frequently... Traore/Constant/Noce tend to look for gaps upfront and make a run.

Quote:
Like I've said, my biggest objection to us playing counter-attacking football is that our defence is not good enough to absorb pressure from a half-decent attack. But then, counters can be started even from the middle of the pitch.

Off the ball, if we move to a 4-4-1-1 from the 4-2-1-3, Boateng and Pazzini will be well placed to finish counters started by one of the midfielders winning possession back. It is a good technique and I think Allegri has that in mind by playing the 3rd central midfielder higher up the pitch when the wing forwards drop back to defend.
I'm ok on how Milan defend once the team is well positioned... The problems I see are when our defense is caught off guard (I think 90% is thanks to some one panicking under pressure or misplacing simple passes) and defensive set pieces.
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Old 28-09-2012, 10:18   #256
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Old 28-09-2012, 10:47   #257
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best posibily formation is 4 2 1 1 2 why ,with this formation we would have 2 dm s covering defence and we could bring ball higher more easly ,then when attacking it should look like this--

---------------------abbia-----------
abate--------mexes------------zapata--------de sceglio

---------------de jong----------muntari---
---------------------montolivo-----------
-----------------------boa------------
----------------pato-------------el-------

when defending


-------------------gk----------------
rb-----------cb---------cb----------lb--------
boa----------jong---------muntari------monty
---------------------------el------------
-----------------pato----------
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Old 28-09-2012, 11:59   #258
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But I thought Allegri didn't know abut other tactics or formations
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Old 27-10-2012, 01:15   #259
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One thing I don't understand is why the double pivot was dropped for the Lazio game even though we absolutely dominated the derby with the Montolivo - De Jong duo.

Another thing I don't understand is why so far there hasn't been a regular starting CD duo.

The 13 goals we conceded were - 7 from set pieces and 6 from open play. Out of the 6 goals we conceded from open play, 4 of them were when we weren't using a double pivot.

So I think set-pieces aside, our defense is not bad. 6 in 11 games, and half of them were against Lazio after the midfield setup was inexplicably changed.

I'm not an expert but I think miscommunication contributes to mistakes in defending set pieces. I don't know what the answer to it is, but I do know that a regular defensive pair would solve a lot of communication problems.

And that is why I don't understand the sudden change to a 3 man defense. The team proved that apart from set pieces it is solid enough when using a double pivot in midfield. But for some reason Allegri decided to change the system, and even after Lazio's game he opted to not return to the 4-2-3-1.

It might be an experiment worth giving more than a game to try, but I don't understand the reasoning behind experimenting even though the 4-2-3-1 was working fine. We played a variation of the double pivot at least since the Udinese game. So let's examine the results since then and the nature of goals conceded:

Udinese - L - 2 set piece goals.
Parma - D - 1 set piece goal.
Zenit - W - 1 set piece goal + 1 from open play.
Inter - L - 1 set piece goal.

So in a 4 game stretch we only conceded once from open play. That was secure. Now some might argue that the new formation could be better for us from an offensive point of view but I don't see how. The 3 man defense costs us a player in a more advanced area in the pitch were we so desperately need any quality. Plus it favors attacking pacy wingbacks while we don't have a single wingback with the suitable characteristics to make the most out of that system.

So I don't understand the reasoning behind switching to a 3 man defense and I think that if we use a double pivot and a regular CD duo our defensive system could be at its best possible state.
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Old 27-10-2012, 02:12   #260
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The double pivot is still there in the 3-4-3. Although flanked by wing backs, the role of the CMs is not much different from what it was in the 4-2-3-1.


First sample was not very good IMO... It worked while the team was pressing all around with energy, but once the team needed to calm down we missed the extra man in midfield. Malaga pinned back our wingers, and that can happen a lot with this formation.
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