Leonardo Thread

Dwa Milan

Milan Per Sempre
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
4,512
Reaction score
0
Location
anywhere with a Milan shirt
Fav. Players
Dejan Savicevic, Pirlo, Kaka,zambrotta,rui costa,sandro nesta,gourcuff, Marco Simone
No kidding. The lack of movement without the ball is a trademark of my country. Watching Milan in the last few years was almost the same as watching my team in here play, slow build up, extremely central display (which caused comical amateurish ball losses), and our players simply didn't move with the ball. No width, slow, boring and predictable.

That said, little changes if the only one you change is the coach but keep the same players. And in most of our games under Leo we've been facing basically the same thing, and that's cause Dinho is slow and our fullbacks suck are sucking (and at least if we're not buying another fullback, get a winger for the left side), if just 1 of those parts works, just 1, our display will improve a lot. And of course if we sort both, I'll say we have things to be competitive.

It will take time to change the style of play since Ance has been here for so long.. so it will also need some new players that will probably arrive one at a time, at least I see the team can play faster these days, the problems are simply adaptation.. it is not easy to change a system that has been there for years.. It will happened if the players are willing to sacrifice and help Leo:)
 

Astafjevs

Starting Eleven
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
402
Reaction score
0
i think you're slightly off in assessing our first team. He wants to play smilar to 1982 tele santana team. Santana was his coach at flamengo (i thkn it was flamengo) and considered the guy who rejuvenated the 'joga bonito' idea. The way i define it is really skilled individual played with almost errorless team passing,. the only real philosophical thing ive ever associated with it is skill, technique, intelligent attacking football over strength and rigid defense....

I don't think I was off at all. Take the part in bold - how can Milan pull this off with only one player who can pass the ball in midfield? Midfield is the key area of the pitch when it comes to determining the style of football you can play.

The things Leo has specifically mentioned on more than one occasion has been 1. play faster and 2. run move off the ball and 3. start attack out the back faster

Again, I come back to the midfield. Movement off the ball requires intelligence. If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it and every player could attack. Movement off the ball gives Pirlo options to pass to, yet only Ronaldinho and Pato offer anything in the way of clever off-the-ball movement. Huntelaar can, but his best work is done in the penalty area, and Pirlo is not usually close enough to reward his work here.

Playing faster requires players who can pass the ball. It is all well and good saying "OK, I want you to play faster, move the ball quicker", but again you need to be able to pass the ball. We have one player who can do that in midfield.

When i look at our starting 11 against juve i saw only 1 gaping hole, fbs. Huntelaar grow up in a dutch 4-3-3 as a Cf, he knows what to do. Ronaldinho if he can get to full fitness obviously is the posterboy for this system. Pato is brazilian and grew up this way. Flamini, though not highly creative had his best success with arsenal, where he ran ALOT off ball, passed well. Pirlo, pep guardiola called him closest player to him and wanted him as there DM or deep lying playmaker. I saw it in small doses, but when this team moves and oplay faster, pirlo looks miles better because he is 1 of the best at spreading the ball. Then you got gattuso who is what he is,. but he is nonstop energy, and u dont see him trying to dribble by 5 defenders, he generally knows his limitations. And 1 thing i saw which i didnt know about was T.Silva's ability to start attack from back. It was the fastest I've seen milan play, held good possession, mounted good attacks with some bad luck in the final 3rd + the fact huntelaar wasn't familar w/ pato and ronnie (that will change with some more training)

You've named two players - Thiago Silva and Pirlo - who can pass the ball effectively. How do you expect the team to fulfil all of this change in style with two players, both of whom are too far away from the opposition penalty area to make the difference?

The real hole is FBs who can push. Zambrotta could in his day but not anymore, janku is okay but still a liability.

In many ways though, the only way its gonna be successful is if ronaldinho can rejuvenate his career, which is risky to tie your success to 1 man. (well and of course staying healthY).

Could we improve our first team? Absolutely. But can it play the style? I dont think its unrealistic to think we cant play at the minimum faster, and move off the ball more. I think 1 of the biggest undoings towards end of the Carlo era was how static we would look at times....

Full-backs further up the pitch would help, it would give Pirlo more options. The way you are talking, you would think it solves all the problems.

We were static under Carlo because he played with Gattuso and Ambrosini in midfield. What else do you expect? They are defensive midfielders. The only movement came from Kaká and Pato, occasionally Ronaldinho. All of whom were in the attacking third. No wonder we were static.
 

Senatore_M84

Milan Legend
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
49,001
Reaction score
0
Fav. Players
Clarence Clyde Seedorf
I don't think I was off at all. Take the part in bold - how can Milan pull this off with only one player who can pass the ball in midfield? Midfield is the key area of the pitch when it comes to determining the style of football you can play.

Flamini is an incredibly accurate passer, good w/ short passes. When he left arsenal he completed second most passes in 07/08 for a very high percentage... he's not going to have the range pirlo but on the otherhand he's pretty good about making the simple play as opposed to attempting something he isnt as good at. Ambrosini is similar . Seedorf is good passer. I dont think passing is as big a problem as dribbling or getting by defenders.



Again, I come back to the midfield. Movement off the ball requires intelligence. If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it and every player could attack. Movement off the ball gives Pirlo options to pass to, yet only Ronaldinho and Pato offer anything in the way of clever off-the-ball movement. Huntelaar can, but his best work is done in the penalty area, and Pirlo is not usually close enough to reward his work here.

which is y i point to fullbacks.

Playing faster requires players who can pass the ball. It is all well and good saying "OK, I want you to play faster, move the ball quicker", but again you need to be able to pass the ball. We have one player who can do that in midfield.

flamini played in a very fast arsenal team. He was a fine passer there. If we had fullbacks who could push up, he could push up the middle more.

You've named two players - Thiago Silva and Pirlo - who can pass the ball effectively. How do you expect the team to fulfil all of this change in style with two players, both of whom are too far away from the opposition penalty area to make the difference?

i said only player who isnt an effective passer is gattuso


Full-backs further up the pitch would help, it would give Pirlo more options. The way you are talking, you would think it solves all the problems.

i think our first team would be effective enough w/ FBs. I still think we r pencil thin on depth

We were static under Carlo because he played with Gattuso and Ambrosini in midfield. What else do you expect? They are defensive midfielders. The only movement came from Kaká and Pato, occasionally Ronaldinho. All of whom were in the attacking third. No wonder we were static.

questionable. Despite what you say, we still scored more than any team in serie A.. meaning they had to be doing SOMETHING right
 

Astafjevs

Starting Eleven
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
402
Reaction score
0
Flamini is an incredibly accurate passer, good w/ short passes. When he left arsenal he completed second most passes in 07/08 for a very high percentage... he's not going to have the range pirlo but on the otherhand he's pretty good about making the simple play as opposed to attempting something he isnt as good at. Ambrosini is similar . Seedorf is good passer. I dont think passing is as big a problem as dribbling or getting by defenders.





which is y i point to fullbacks.



flamini played in a very fast arsenal team. He was a fine passer there. If we had fullbacks who could push up, he could push up the middle more.



i said only player who isnt an effective passer is gattuso




i think our first team would be effective enough w/ FBs. I still think we r pencil thin on depth



questionable. Despite what you say, we still scored more than any team in serie A.. meaning they had to be doing SOMETHING right

You overestimate this team massively. And quoting that useless stat for Flamini is ridiculous. Highest percentage of passes, but how many were penetrating, how many were attacking? The reason that stat is so high is because the majority of his passes went sideways. In the same way as Makélélé had a high pass percentage at Chelsea.

You seem to think playing simple short passes is enough. It won't be anywhere close to being what is required for Leonardo to successfully implement the style he wants. You need people who can pass more than 5 yards accurately. You need players who can pass with invention. Including Ambrosini as one of these players is way off the mark, because he can't pass effectively.

And Inter scored just as many goals, Juventus scored only one less. You make it sound as if we were ahead by miles - we weren't even outright top goalscorers.
 

Senatore_M84

Milan Legend
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
49,001
Reaction score
0
Fav. Players
Clarence Clyde Seedorf
You overestimate this team massively. And quoting that useless stat for Flamini is ridiculous. Highest percentage of passes, but how many were penetrating, how many were attacking? The reason that stat is so high is because the majority of his passes went sideways. In the same way as Makélélé had a high pass percentage at Chelsea.

You seem to think playing simple short passes is enough. It won't be anywhere close to being what is required for Leonardo to successfully implement the style he wants. You need people who can pass more than 5 yards accurately. You need players who can pass with invention. Including Ambrosini as one of these players is way off the mark, because he can't pass effectively.

And Inter scored just as many goals, Juventus scored only one less. You make it sound as if we were ahead by miles - we weren't even outright top goalscorers.


i wouldnt necessarily disagree we need added creativity in midfield, but i'm also saying its not as doom and gloom as u think. I liked what i saw from pirlo, flamini, gattuso in trofeo berlusconi... never seen them play that fast ALL last year. In fact if you read my posts i'm 1 of the least big fans of flams.. but it dawned on me, in this system he could floorish or atleast he's adept to play it. I do think we need another creative mid cause the pressure on pirlo is too much....

BTW on barca since u initially referenced them, many games were yaya, keita/busquets + xavi (or iniesta). The xavi, iniesta combo played in big games but they didnt play together in all the league games... i recall many where it was keita, yaya, xavi
 

Astafjevs

Starting Eleven
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
402
Reaction score
0
That's because Iniesta was injured. You don't honestly think Guardiola saves Xavi and Iniesta playing in the same midfield for the big games? He'd play them everytime if he could, but injuries, whether they be to Iniesta, or Henry/Messi, mean he couldn't.
 

Senatore_M84

Milan Legend
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
49,001
Reaction score
0
Fav. Players
Clarence Clyde Seedorf
That's because Iniesta was injured. You don't honestly think Guardiola saves Xavi and Iniesta playing in the same midfield for the big games? He'd play them everytime if he could, but injuries, whether they be to Iniesta, or Henry/Messi, mean he couldn't.

that avoids the point that w/ keita, yaya and xavi they were still every effective.

i didn't say why he did it (though squad rotation when you're fighting 3 tourney's is a must), but they didnt suffer
 

hdcantona

Senatore_M84's Protege
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
10,477
Reaction score
0
if you count Dinho as forward 3, Pirlo is one of, if not THE most creative midfielder we have, we don't have many really, but due to his defensive shortcomings, we must have a rino type player next to him , then the other position is up for grabs, and IMO Flamini should get it, he has a little creativity in him, but he's strong and has good defensive qualities, not to mention being quite young compared to large parts of our squad!
 

Dario_Milan_3

Primavera
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Messages
203
Reaction score
0
Location
Wisconsin
Fav. Players
Any Milan player contributing to the expected success of the side, need more good Italian players.
Leo speaks

Nice to hear the honesty, and that he isn't afraid to say the truth even if it goes against the BS Silvio speaks. Also like how he is handling the Oddo situation.
 

Edi

Milan Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2003
Messages
4,700
Reaction score
0
Location
Prague
Fav. Players
Maldini,Nesta,Kaka,
He is right about Ronaldinho. Everybody is trying to encourage him and help him but at the end its all down to Ronaldinho
 

KujaIX

Mexes & Muntari fanboy
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
35,561
Reaction score
4,151
Fav. Players
Current team
so he's practically told oddo to fuck off aswell as he told kalac
 

zZ[-_-]Zz

¤ Gli Invicibili ¤
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Messages
7,494
Reaction score
0
Fav. Players
Roberto Baggio, Franco Baresi, Marco van Basten
And we know how it will turn out in the end. Remember Sacchi?
 

GreatKalu

I still believe!
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
14,079
Reaction score
50
Location
Lusaka, Zambia
Yeah ... Berlu's already hinted that he feels Leo's not doing the right things tactically. Which may be true, but come on ... this Dinho obsession is getting out of hand. How many people have said the same exact things about him? Is it a coincidence?

In the end, Berlu probably knows exactly whats going on. He's just using his perhaps fabricated Dinho obsession as an excuse for not investing appropriately.
 

DSM

Milan Icon
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
3,723
Reaction score
0
Yeah ... Berlu's already hinted that he feels Leo's not doing the right things tactically. Which may be true, but come on ... this Dinho obsession is getting out of hand. How many people have said the same exact things about him? Is it a coincidence?

In the end, Berlu probably knows exactly whats going on. He's just using his perhaps fabricated Dinho obsession as an excuse for not investing appropriately.

If Ronaldinho does'nt perform this season then Berlusconi will have nowhere to hide interms of the player & Ronaldinho will not be at Milan long.

He is trying to make Ronaldinho look like agood signing when overall he his struggling when infact interms of transfers he has done very little paying of fees in recent years.
 

zZ[-_-]Zz

¤ Gli Invicibili ¤
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Messages
7,494
Reaction score
0
Fav. Players
Roberto Baggio, Franco Baresi, Marco van Basten
You haven't been following Milan for long have you? If Dinho fails, then it is possible Leo gets the blame for not getting the best out of him, like many coaches before him. That is, if Berlusconi intends to keep Dinho, without forgetting that it is easier to just get rid of Leo than Dinho.
 

Senatore_M84

Milan Legend
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
49,001
Reaction score
0
Fav. Players
Clarence Clyde Seedorf
You haven't been following Milan for long have you? If Dinho fails, then it is possible Leo gets the blame for not getting the best out of him, like many coaches before him. That is, if Berlusconi intends to keep Dinho, without forgetting that it is easier to just get rid of Leo than Dinho.

if dinho flames out and doesnt make world cup, he'll likely have options of going to turkey, middle east or mls
 

GreatKalu

I still believe!
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
14,079
Reaction score
50
Location
Lusaka, Zambia
I honestly believe this was one of the main reasons Carlo left. He probably had enough + basically showed Berlu the finger by stubbornly benching Dinho and playing Clarence. It was evident as early as the second game against Genoa that Carlo never wanted Dinho to begin with ... Dinho and Sheva. Subbing them off + not starting them the next match was a clear indication of what he exactly felt.
 

Senatore_M84

Milan Legend
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
49,001
Reaction score
0
Fav. Players
Clarence Clyde Seedorf
I honestly believe this was one of the main reasons Carlo left. He probably had enough + basically showed Berlu the finger by stubbornly benching Dinho and playing Clarence. It was evident as early as the second game against Genoa that Carlo never wanted Dinho to begin with ... Dinho and Sheva. Subbing them off + not starting them the next match was a clear indication of what he exactly felt.

youre seocnd part is false. Ronnie started most every match till december. I think carlo had had it when he came back from xmas out of shape.... and wasnt doing anyone favors...
 

Ashish

Milan Legend
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
39,087
Reaction score
4,029
Location
Florida
Fav. Players
R.I.P. Papa Berlu, G, R9, Nesta, Rui, Maldini, Gattuso, Robert Wieckiewicz, Brendan Gleeson
loooooooool an$hit was puss to show midfinger to berlu, berlu fired ancelotti and then on milan site it was mutual agreement.

anyway hope carlo wins something in england :)
 

crazy4milan

Exotic Stevie G
Joined
Dec 16, 2003
Messages
16,345
Reaction score
2
Fav. Players
Maldini,Weah,Nesta,Dida
youre seocnd part is false. Ronnie started most every match till december. I think carlo had had it when he came back from xmas out of shape.... and wasnt doing anyone favors...
I think the first indications of Carlo's negative of Dinho (& Sheva) came in the game vs Genoa too (it was too clear, cause the whole team wasn't working that first half, but the ones he took off were the ones we all knew he didn't want in the team), yes then he started Dinho in a lot (not all) of the games till January. But at that time, although I wasn't truely impressed at least he was working well and scoring goals (weather most of them came via pk or deviated freekicks or fks), afterwards it was nothing out of nothing, and on top of that Becks came showing the right attittude on and off the field and giving more balance to the team (and someone who was able to cross).
 

GreatKalu

I still believe!
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
14,079
Reaction score
50
Location
Lusaka, Zambia
youre seocnd part is false. Ronnie started most every match till december. I think carlo had had it when he came back from xmas out of shape.... and wasnt doing anyone favors...
You misunderstood. The first time Carlo made his opinion felt regarding the arrivals of both Sheva and Dinho was at the Genoa game ... followed by relegating the two of them to the bench in the following game (Lazio?).
 

GreatKalu

I still believe!
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
14,079
Reaction score
50
Location
Lusaka, Zambia
I think the first indications of Carlo's negative of Dinho (& Sheva) came in the game vs Genoa too (it was too clear, cause the whole team wasn't working that first half, but the ones he took off were the ones we all knew he didn't want in the team), yes then he started Dinho in a lot (not all) of the games till January. But at that time, although I wasn't truely impressed at least he was working well and scoring goals (weather most of them came via pk or deviated freekicks or fks), afterwards it was nothing out of nothing, and on top of that Becks came showing the right attittude on and off the field and giving more balance to the team (and someone who was able to cross).

Yeah. Pretty much agree. Even during the first half of the season, Dinho was decent ... not anything extraordinary. Heck Gattuso picked up more assists than him during that period. Gattuso though ... really was something else last season. Our best player by miles, until he got injured. Such a pity.
 

Armin__m

Milan Icon
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
3,860
Reaction score
0
Location
BiH
Fav. Players
>>rossoneri<<
youre seocnd part is false. Ronnie started most every match till december. I think carlo had had it when he came back from xmas out of shape.... and wasnt doing anyone favors...
I think he had to start him actually,as for most of that time,Pirlo was injured and Seedorf was playing in his position.
 

Astafjevs

Starting Eleven
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
402
Reaction score
0
youre seocnd part is false. Ronnie started most every match till december. I think carlo had had it when he came back from xmas out of shape.... and wasnt doing anyone favors...

Injuries. Borriello was injured. Pirlo was injured. Seedorf had to drop back to the midfield (trying to replicate Pirlo's role in a few games). Inzaghi was injured/lacking fitness. He had no-one else to play in attack.
 

Armin__m

Milan Icon
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
3,860
Reaction score
0
Location
BiH
Fav. Players
>>rossoneri<<
loooooooool an$hit was puss to show midfinger to berlu, berlu fired ancelotti and then on milan site it was mutual agreement.

anyway hope carlo wins something in england :)
He was fired? He wanted the change and it`s pretty clear that he had decided he would move to Chelsea a lot before he actually signed for them. I`m honestly not that sure that we would`ve parted ways with him if he wanted to stay.
And if he was such a pussy,he would`ve never benched Ronaldinho last season,because he`s obviously B`s favourite player.

You`ve just come back,and you`ve already hit your top form in writing bullshit.
 

Elbow man

Beginner
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
88
Reaction score
0
Location
Pilton, Edinburgh
Fav. Players
Nesta, Maldini, T.Silva, Rui Costa, Inzaghi
He was fired? He wanted the change and it`s pretty clear that he had decided he would move to Chelsea a lot before he actually signed for them.

I heard something that it was decided long before but galiani didnt want a stir in Milan fans (LOL:D). He has made Chelsea more likable now.
 

Quinni 17

Gold Tie Hero
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
2,688
Reaction score
0
Location
UK
Fav. Players
Maldini, Baresi, Rino, Pippo, Sheva, Pato.
Yeah. Pretty much agree. Even during the first half of the season, Dinho was decent ... not anything extraordinary. Heck Gattuso picked up more assists than him during that period. Gattuso though ... really was something else last season. Our best player by miles, until he got injured. Such a pity.

True again man, think Ambro had another amazing season with Rino... unfortunately the two play pretty similar roles. Maldini or even Favalli for best defender haha, Pato up top is an easy choice.

Injury actually helped Pirlo's season lol, when he came back he began to pick up his form quite a bit. Luckily for us Flamini helped us out when Pirlo was injured, he came alot closer to the Flamini of Arsenal.

Leo hopefully will recognise that our midfield needs quite a bit of rotation or altering to get the best out of it. Pirlo's slow tempo and Clarence's pace in the same midfield might not work like it used to. I am not writing them off though, they are phenomenal players on their day.
 

GreatKalu

I still believe!
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
14,079
Reaction score
50
Location
Lusaka, Zambia
It still needs an injection of creativity. Its such a pity that our creative forces in midfield do not always perform at their best consistently. Namely, Pirlo, Clarence and Dinho. Sneijder would have been perfect to provide the competition and depth we need, but VDV would also do fine ...
 
Top