Gennaro Gattuso Thread

Hannibal · Feb 24, 2019

necromancer said:
What I've been saying here for a while when posters get obsessed about tactics is that tactics are always secondary to knowing how to manage a squad and how to get your players in the right conditions to play their natural game.

Any manager coaching in a high level league has a tactical system. Gattuso has a clear tactical system. When he becomes successful, some guy will make a youtube video about it and then it will become branded. Until then, many people can't see it and will keep saying he doesn't have any tactics. You, other posters, I have all discussed various aspects of his tactics in various threads in this forum.

So there's no question of tactics not being there at all. Beppe Iachini, Di Carlo, Nicola.. they all have tactical systems.

But it is always secondary to knowing how to manage a squad. Sarri is proving to be the classic example. He does not know how to manage diverse squads. He has a rigid, fixed way of playing football (his tactical system) and he tries to make some 14-15 players play that way - while ignoring the rest and not considering alternate styles that might suit his squad. He's open about it and clubs who hire him should know that that's what they are buying into.

Diversion: Mario Rui - great case in point of Sarri's lack of squad management. Sarri ignored him thoroughly at Napoli until Ghoulam got injured. De Laurentiis called him out on it (along with Rog and someone else I can't remember), and now see how Ancelotti managed to make Rui so good? While also keeping Ghoulam happy.

In modern football, such a tactician will not be successful if he cannot manage a squad and grow his players. For me it's clear - man management first, tactics second.

You don't need to specify that tactics are needed.. like I said, any manager worth his salt in a high level league, has a tactical system and a team of coaches who do obsess about it. It is just overstated these days because of the profusion of online analysts who create videos and long blog posts about it. None of this is new.

To me, the gold standard in modern football management remains Ancelotti and he's the perfect example of someone who knows that in order to win trophies, managing a squad is more important than tactical systems. He has used various tactical systems over the course of his career, each suited to whichever squad he's handling at that time. Players come first, tactics come later. We aren't living in Sacchi's era anymore. And all indications so far are that Gattuso learned as much as he could from Ancelotti. If he continues along this path, we will win trophies with Gattuso.

Great post :thumbsup:

Goodfella · Feb 25, 2019

necromancer said:
What I've been saying here for a while when posters get obsessed about tactics is that tactics are always secondary to knowing how to manage a squad and how to get your players in the right conditions to play their natural game.

Any manager coaching in a high level league has a tactical system. Gattuso has a clear tactical system. When he becomes successful, some guy will make a youtube video about it and then it will become branded. Until then, many people can't see it and will keep saying he doesn't have any tactics. You, other posters, I have all discussed various aspects of his tactics in various threads in this forum.

So there's no question of tactics not being there at all. Beppe Iachini, Di Carlo, Nicola.. they all have tactical systems.

But it is always secondary to knowing how to manage a squad. Sarri is proving to be the classic example. He does not know how to manage diverse squads. He has a rigid, fixed way of playing football (his tactical system) and he tries to make some 14-15 players play that way - while ignoring the rest and not considering alternate styles that might suit his squad. He's open about it and clubs who hire him should know that that's what they are buying into.

Diversion: Mario Rui - great case in point of Sarri's lack of squad management. Sarri ignored him thoroughly at Napoli until Ghoulam got injured. De Laurentiis called him out on it (along with Rog and someone else I can't remember), and now see how Ancelotti managed to make Rui so good? While also keeping Ghoulam happy.

In modern football, such a tactician will not be successful if he cannot manage a squad and grow his players. For me it's clear - man management first, tactics second.

You don't need to specify that tactics are needed.. like I said, any manager worth his salt in a high level league, has a tactical system and a team of coaches who do obsess about it. It is just overstated these days because of the profusion of online analysts who create videos and long blog posts about it. None of this is new.

To me, the gold standard in modern football management remains Ancelotti and he's the perfect example of someone who knows that in order to win trophies, managing a squad is more important than tactical systems. He has used various tactical systems over the course of his career, each suited to whichever squad he's handling at that time. Players come first, tactics come later. We aren't living in Sacchi's era anymore. And all indications so far are that Gattuso learned as much as he could from Ancelotti. If he continues along this path, we will win trophies with Gattuso.

Agree overall.
Man-management comes before anything else.

I see issues with Carlo's man-management though, and he too got a lot of stick for lack of rotation in RM.
It might be that he is too nice to certain players, or he's not passionate enough, or maybe the Bayern players were right, his training methods and preparations are too lax and outdated.
One thing's clear, he's not your guy if you want to compete on all fronts.
He tends to give calmness to his teams, which is great when you're facing the best teams in CL, but not when you need them to be alert and on their toes in all of the 20-25 games against minnows.

We can already see this in Napoli as well. They're calmer. But they also don't play with the same intensity. I think he's trying to make them less reliant on their athleticism. He seems to have managed that in Europe, but they aren't exactly improving on Sarri's 91 points in Serie A this season.

As for Rino, I think much of it is just his personality. He's crazy, passionate and not afraid to say what's on his mind or deal with conflicts, but he's also a fun, humble, down-to-earth, lovable guy(as opposed to the Roy Keanes). He even got away with strangling an old man, ffs.
For comparison, there's Pippo who strikes me as a passive aggressive, boring, even awkward and annoying type of guy.
Seedorf had the charisma to sway the Balos and Taarabts, but he couldn't even fake humbleness and he comes across as stiff compared to Rino.

Pipa · Feb 25, 2019

necromancer said:
What I've been saying here for a while when posters get obsessed about tactics is that tactics are always secondary to knowing how to manage a squad and how to get your players in the right conditions to play their natural game.

Any manager coaching in a high level league has a tactical system. Gattuso has a clear tactical system. When he becomes successful, some guy will make a youtube video about it and then it will become branded. Until then, many people can't see it and will keep saying he doesn't have any tactics. You, other posters, I have all discussed various aspects of his tactics in various threads in this forum.

So there's no question of tactics not being there at all. Beppe Iachini, Di Carlo, Nicola.. they all have tactical systems.

But it is always secondary to knowing how to manage a squad. Sarri is proving to be the classic example. He does not know how to manage diverse squads. He has a rigid, fixed way of playing football (his tactical system) and he tries to make some 14-15 players play that way - while ignoring the rest and not considering alternate styles that might suit his squad. He's open about it and clubs who hire him should know that that's what they are buying into.

Diversion: Mario Rui - great case in point of Sarri's lack of squad management. Sarri ignored him thoroughly at Napoli until Ghoulam got injured. De Laurentiis called him out on it (along with Rog and someone else I can't remember), and now see how Ancelotti managed to make Rui so good? While also keeping Ghoulam happy.

In modern football, such a tactician will not be successful if he cannot manage a squad and grow his players. For me it's clear - man management first, tactics second.

You don't need to specify that tactics are needed.. like I said, any manager worth his salt in a high level league, has a tactical system and a team of coaches who do obsess about it. It is just overstated these days because of the profusion of online analysts who create videos and long blog posts about it. None of this is new.

To me, the gold standard in modern football management remains Ancelotti and he's the perfect example of someone who knows that in order to win trophies, managing a squad is more important than tactical systems. He has used various tactical systems over the course of his career, each suited to whichever squad he's handling at that time. Players come first, tactics come later. We aren't living in Sacchi's era anymore. And all indications so far are that Gattuso learned as much as he could from Ancelotti. If he continues along this path, we will win trophies with Gattuso.

Great post necromunch :thumbsup:

necromancer · Feb 25, 2019

Happy that you guys enjoyed that post :thumbsup:

Goodfella said:
Agree overall.
Man-management comes before anything else.

I see issues with Carlo's man-management though, and he too got a lot of stick for lack of rotation in RM.
It might be that he is too nice to certain players, or he's not passionate enough, or maybe the Bayern players were right, his training methods and preparations are too lax and outdated.
One thing's clear, he's not your guy if you want to compete on all fronts.
He tends to give calmness to his teams, which is great when you're facing the best teams in CL, but not when you need them to be alert and on their toes in all of the 20-25 games against minnows.

We can already see this in Napoli as well. They're calmer. But they also don't play with the same intensity. I think he's trying to make them less reliant on their athleticism. He seems to have managed that in Europe, but they aren't exactly improving on Sarri's 91 points in Serie A this season.

As for Rino, I think much of it is just his personality. He's crazy, passionate and not afraid to say what's on his mind or deal with conflicts, but he's also a fun, humble, down-to-earth, lovable guy(as opposed to the Roy Keanes). He even got away with strangling an old man, ffs.
For comparison, there's Pippo who strikes me as a passive aggressive, boring, even awkward and annoying type of guy.
Seedorf had the charisma to sway the Balos and Taarabts, but he couldn't even fake humbleness and he comes across as stiff compared to Rino.

Yes, Carletto is like that.. And particularly about Napoli this season, yes they will never get to 91 points, but they've become a good squad with tactically diverse options. And competitive in Europe like you said. The Conte/Sarri level of squad management works in the right conditions for a league season or two - but unlikely to stay on beyond that I guess. If I were a club owner, I'd prefer the Carletto approach.

helloAgain · Feb 25, 2019

Goodfella said:
For comparison, there's Pippo who strikes me as a passive aggressive, boring, even awkward and annoying type of guy.
Seedorf had the charisma to sway the Balos and Taarabts, but he couldn't even fake humbleness and he comes across as stiff compared to Rino.

yeah. pippo looks very awkward. same goes for allegri(i think this is the biggest reason everyone here hates him). as for gattuso, i don't think he would be as successful in other big clubs as he is here. at least not right now. here, he is at his home and can enforce his rules. he is supported from top. not to mention, he is mostly handling young players and not superstars. if he manages to win something big with us, i can see him becoming huge because he is down to earth and is a team man.

Congo Powers · Feb 25, 2019

Goodfella said:
He even got away with strangling an old man, ffs.

IL Diavolo 3 · Feb 25, 2019

Gattuso will renew until 2022 with 3.5m a season and some bonuses. Elliot will grant him a hefty war chest as well.

IL Diavolo 3 · Feb 25, 2019

necromancer said:
http://www.espn.com/soccer/italian-...in-position-to-return-to-the-champions-league

Horncastle's take on our journey, with this wonderfully accurate line:

Horncastle and gab marcotti are goats.

vidarth · Feb 25, 2019

necromancer said:
What I've been saying here for a while when posters get obsessed about tactics is that tactics are always secondary to knowing how to manage a squad and how to get your players in the right conditions to play their natural game.

Any manager coaching in a high level league has a tactical system. Gattuso has a clear tactical system. When he becomes successful, some guy will make a youtube video about it and then it will become branded. Until then, many people can't see it and will keep saying he doesn't have any tactics. You, other posters, I have all discussed various aspects of his tactics in various threads in this forum.

So there's no question of tactics not being there at all. Beppe Iachini, Di Carlo, Nicola.. they all have tactical systems.

But it is always secondary to knowing how to manage a squad. Sarri is proving to be the classic example. He does not know how to manage diverse squads. He has a rigid, fixed way of playing football (his tactical system) and he tries to make some 14-15 players play that way - while ignoring the rest and not considering alternate styles that might suit his squad. He's open about it and clubs who hire him should know that that's what they are buying into.

Diversion: Mario Rui - great case in point of Sarri's lack of squad management. Sarri ignored him thoroughly at Napoli until Ghoulam got injured. De Laurentiis called him out on it (along with Rog and someone else I can't remember), and now see how Ancelotti managed to make Rui so good? While also keeping Ghoulam happy.

In modern football, such a tactician will not be successful if he cannot manage a squad and grow his players. For me it's clear - man management first, tactics second.

You don't need to specify that tactics are needed.. like I said, any manager worth his salt in a high level league, has a tactical system and a team of coaches who do obsess about it. It is just overstated these days because of the profusion of online analysts who create videos and long blog posts about it. None of this is new.

To me, the gold standard in modern football management remains Ancelotti and he's the perfect example of someone who knows that in order to win trophies, managing a squad is more important than tactical systems. He has used various tactical systems over the course of his career, each suited to whichever squad he's handling at that time. Players come first, tactics come later. We aren't living in Sacchi's era anymore. And all indications so far are that Gattuso learned as much as he could from Ancelotti. If he continues along this path, we will win trophies with Gattuso.

Ronin · Feb 25, 2019

IL Diavolo 3 said:
Gattuso will renew until 2022 with 3.5m a season and some bonuses. Elliot will grant him a hefty war chest as well.

well deserved

Pipa · Feb 27, 2019

IL Diavolo 3 said:
Gattuso will renew until 2022 with 3.5m a season and some bonuses. Elliot will grant him a hefty war chest as well.

Hefty war chest

Bird · Feb 27, 2019

Milan after 25 games in the last 7 seasons:

2018-19: 4th place / 45 points
2017-18: 7th place / 41 points
2016-17: 7th place / 44 points
2015-16: 6th place / 43 points

Same points as previous failures, despite a better squad.
45/25= average of 1.8 points per game.
1.8x38 games= 68 points.
The last two seasons, the 4th spot was won with 72 points.

Yeah, Rino may be great as a player manager but if you can't get them to actually win games, who cares if everyone is happy.

Suso is a great example of such a failure from Rino.
He pampers him with opportunities but keeps failing to perform because Rino can't read him as a player, his weakness/strengths.
Rino is too focused on the man, rather then the player.

Rino may have a good future career as a coach but he is too green at the moment to bring Milan back to CL glory.

Whether or not we get that CL spot, will depend more on the performance of the competition, rather then Rino's Milan.

vB9 · Feb 27, 2019

we should’ve tried to go through the other midfielders, but we kept trying that central channel.

Again, dont tell us, tell it to yr players in-game... instruct that change!

General · Feb 27, 2019

Pipa said:
Hefty war chest

I miss u

helloAgain · Feb 28, 2019

Bird said:
Same points as previous failures, despite a better squad.
45/25= average of 1.8 points per game.
1.8x38 games= 68 points.
The last two seasons, the 4th spot was won with 72 points.

there is a slim chance, rest of the serie a has stepped up a bit. or maybe we are just as bad as past 7 years.

Ronin · Feb 28, 2019

I'm pretty sure we'll have more than 72 points at the end of the season. Bird, wanna bet?

Polotelli · Feb 28, 2019

Bird said:
Same points as previous failures, despite a better squad.
45/25= average of 1.8 points per game.
1.8x38 games= 68 points.
The last two seasons, the 4th spot was won with 72 points.

You forgot to say spoiler alert :mad:

General · Feb 28, 2019

So Sass this is the team Rino is going to beat next?

Bird · Feb 28, 2019

helloAgain said:
there is a slim chance, rest of the serie a has stepped up a bit. or maybe we are just as bad as past 7 years.

You also need to take into account that the last two seasons, 4th place meant pretty much nothing, as it was still just a EL spot, yet those teams ended with their season with 72 points.
The competition is more fierce than before for the 4th place.

Ronin said:
I'm pretty sure we'll have more than 72 points at the end of the season. Bird, wanna bet?

Roma and Inter seem to have gotten their shit together now so this will be hard but either way, I don't see us getting more than 72 points.
If we do get that CL spot, it will be with max 72 points. You're on!

necromancer · Feb 28, 2019

I'm fairly certain 70 points will more than settle this season's 4th spot. Likelier to be 67-68. It's a season with much tougher mid-table teams than the last several seasons. In fact, besides Frosinone, Chievo and Empoli, there really aren't any easy fixtures. Even Chievo away is not an easy one since Di Carlo came back.

Neruda · Feb 28, 2019

Bird said:
Same points as previous failures, despite a better squad.
45/25= average of 1.8 points per game.
1.8x38 games= 68 points.
The last two seasons, the 4th spot was won with 72 points.

Yeah, Rino may be great as a player manager but if you can't get them to actually win games, who cares if everyone is happy.

Suso is a great example of such a failure from Rino.
He pampers him with opportunities but keeps failing to perform because Rino can't read him as a player, his weakness/strengths.
Rino is too focused on the man, rather then the player.

Rino may have a good future career as a coach but he is too green at the moment to bring Milan back to CL glory.

Whether or not we get that CL spot, will depend more on the performance of the competition, rather then Rino's Milan.

I see where youre coming from but seeing with who Rino played and trained his entire career i refuse to believe he cant see suso as a player

Mr. Milanista · Feb 28, 2019

necromancer said:
I'm fairly certain 70 points will more than settle this season's 4th spot. Likelier to be 67-68. It's a season with much tougher mid-table teams than the last several seasons. In fact, besides Frosinone, Chievo and Empoli, there really aren't any easy fixtures. Even Chievo away is not an easy one since Di Carlo came back.

I actually counted yesterday how we should end up with our remaining 13 games and I counted atleast 8 wins which ends up as 20 wins this season. That would put us at 69 points with our 9 draws, excluding the draws or losses of the other 5 games.

We should end up at atleast 4th place, but we'll see.
Sampdoria away, Ladri away, Torino away, Fiorentina away and potentially Lazio/Inter at home we could drop points.

Bird · Mar 1, 2019

Neruda said:
I see where youre coming from but seeing with who Rino played and trained his entire career i refuse to believe he cant see suso as a player

The fact that he keeps starting Suso over Samu, shows how little he knows of his players.
Blind faith in your players is not going to magically turn them into Messis.

A player manager can work, if you have a prime Bartha/Real squad (i.e self-playing piano/win by pure difference in quality) but not so much so when you have to deal with the Susos, Hakans and Borinis.

Sooner or later those guys will lose respect for Rino and only see him as a joke, which leaves him with nothing left to bring to the table.

Let's see who he starts as LW against Sassuolo.
My bet is that, against Sassuolo, Rino will once again show that he is a player manager and not an actual tactician.

necromancer · Mar 1, 2019

Mr. Milanista said:
I actually counted yesterday how we should end up with our remaining 13 games and I counted atleast 8 wins which ends up as 20 wins this season. That would put us at 69 points with our 9 draws, excluding the draws or losses of the other 5 games.

We should end up at atleast 4th place, but we'll see.
Sampdoria away, Ladri away, Torino away, Fiorentina away and potentially Lazio/Inter at home we could drop points.

Yup. From the beginning of 'ritorno', I've been counting this. By my reckoning, we needed 12 wins in the 19 matches (and 3-4 draws). We have won 4 already, 8 more wins needed. This current period is actually the crucial one. Sassuolo, Chievo, and then shortly Udinese, Sampdoria and Lazio at home should be wins.

When the last 5 game run hits us, we would be facing Bologna, Torino, Fiorentina, Frosinone and SPAL. 3 of those will be fighting relegation and we could quite likely drop points. We need to go into that run-in with just 3 wins needed out of 5. Or at around 60 points.

Thenebra · Mar 1, 2019

Bird said:
The fact that he keeps starting Suso over Samu, shows how little he knows of his players.

Blind faith in your players is not going to magically turn them into Messis.

A player manager can work, if you have a prime Bartha/Real squad (i.e self-playing piano/win by pure difference in quality) but not so much so when you have to deal with the Susos, Hakans and Borinis.

Sooner or later those guys will lose respect for Rino and only see him as a joke, which leaves him with nothing left to bring to the table.

Let's see who he starts as LW against Sassuolo.

My bet is that, against Sassuolo, Rino will once again show that he is a player manager and not an actual tactician.

Our coach does not know his players.

But its ok because bird does.

Ronin · Mar 1, 2019

Thenebra said:
Our coach does not know his players.

But its ok because bird does.

brk · Mar 1, 2019

Bird said:
The fact that he keeps starting Suso over Samu, shows how little he knows of his players.
Blind faith in your players is not going to magically turn them into Messis.

A player manager can work, if you have a prime Bartha/Real squad (i.e self-playing piano/win by pure difference in quality) but not so much so when you have to deal with the Susos, Hakans and Borinis.

Sooner or later those guys will lose respect for Rino and only see him as a joke, which leaves him with nothing left to bring to the table.

Let's see who he starts as LW against Sassuolo.
My bet is that, against Sassuolo, Rino will once again show that he is a player manager and not an actual tactician.

???????????????????

necromancer · Mar 1, 2019

A little bird told me that Gennaro Gattuso does not know his players.

joyrider · Mar 1, 2019

It’s very simple.
The guy who spends most of his time with the players, obviously doesn’t know the players.

Maybe Rino needs to spend less time with the players.

The-Loko · Mar 1, 2019

joyrider said:
It’s very simple.
The guy who spends most of his time with the players, obviously doesn’t know the players.

Maybe Rino needs to spend less time with the players.

Indeed, Rino needs to be a commoder in RnB in order to understand his players.

Gennaro Gattuso Thread

When is the first clash between Gattuso and Zamparini?

Pre-season

September

October

November

December

January

February

March

April

May

June

They won't clash

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