AC Milan Tactics

Senatore_M84 · Jun 11, 2013

Sven said:
Yup.
I assume a #10 and a ball playing CM will arrive if they really made that future planning meeting in Arcore. They talked about formations and mercato.

Also, Galliani said Prince will be back in midfield.

Unless Silvio talk about formation was again just whining. But at least I expect Galliani to get more skilled players.

the thing w/ boateng at RCM/LCM it could resemble dunga's 4-3-1-2 in elano role.

El shaarawy naturally goes left like robinho, boateng in that RCM/RW role elano played, but thing w/ it is.... it was very depedent on a driving AM.

Goodfella · Jun 11, 2013

Gacek said:
I would like to see Milan in 4-2-3-1, but it's important because of transfer reasons, and what's more - i think that would be worse for our young offensive duo - Niang and SES.

Why would it be worse for SES? He scored the majority of his goals in 4-2-3-1 or similar systems with 4 attacking players.

Anyway, agree with Sven regarding 4-3-3 & 4-3-1-2.

Sven · Jun 11, 2013

Senatore_M84 said:
the thing w/ boateng at RCM/LCM it could resemble dunga's 4-3-1-2 in elano role.

El shaarawy naturally goes left like robinho, boateng in that RCM/RW role elano played, but thing w/ it is.... it was very depedent on a driving AM.

Yep.
Also, a thing with Elano's role was to drift inside to make space for Maicon who was a huge offensive threat.
We don't have that with Abate or De Sciglio, maybe Prince would need to look more conventional on the same place.

Gacek · Jun 11, 2013

So I figured I was in the middle of one of those Internet discussions, borderline ego fight and with no substance full of smartass comments and void rhetoric, points extended on on on instead of clarified, etc. But I'll not be dragged to it.

And in the prior sentence you wrote a lot of smartass comments about me. Ok, your choice. I won't be dragged into personal arguments like those written by you.

Allegri 4312 was vulnerable against overlapping fullbacks on the blind side (a game against Lazio comes to mind).
That was not apparent anymore in the 433 cause of the hard work of our wingers. The FB was covered.

This is what I meant with the attack defending wider.

Fine. I wrote to you that it's absolutale possible to make attack defending wider in 4-3-1-2. In that case we just have to agree to disagree and wait for next season to see what Allegri will do against 3-5-2.

2) You think 4312 is superior to 433. I don't think 433 is superior to 4312.

No.
I think with our team and with this coach 4-3-1-2 is a better formation than 4-3-3.

3) Silvio is a fan of the #10. He likes that player with rampant of genius that win a game with a play, a dribble, a pass. He wanted Dinho on the shoulder of Pato and Huntelaar, he wanted Cassano behind Ibra and Pato.

Apart from that with this players 4-3-1-2 is a better choice (IMO) you're wrong. Berlu didn't want Dinho to play behind Pato and Huntelaar, he wanted 4-2-fantasia with R10 to play next to them. I can't agree with Cassano's part either as we all can't know what Berlusconi saw in him - Cassano have never played constantly as CAM in Milan and I can't recall any articles about Berlusconi's idea to use Cassano there.

Why would it be worse for SES? He scored the majority of his goals in 4-2-3-1 or similar systems with 4 attacking players.

4-3-3 was better for SES for growing reasons. He learned a lot and changed his playing style. Same goes to Niang. They both have never worked that much in defence. That formation let them to become better strikers, two way attackers.
But I think that they can reach 100% potential only in playing higher and working in defence higher than in 4-3-3. SES was too limited by defensive guidelines - in the future I hope he won't have to run back near his penalty box to get the ball.

Senatore_M84 · Jun 11, 2013

your issue w/ el shaarawy defending too deep is more to do w/ our midfield not advancing ball fast enough.

Gacek · Jun 11, 2013

your issue w/ el shaarawy defending too deep is more to do w/ our midfield not advancing ball fast enough.

I don't think so.
IMO our wingers got guidelines that they both have to defend near the penalty box.
It was good for SES and Niang, i won't call it "my issue", don't get me wrong. Learning how to play that deep and defend is great for them, I just don't want them to do that in 4-3-1-2. Play widely, yes, defend widely too, but don't run that much. I hope that AMC will give him some rest from that and give him more freedom in offence.

necromancer · Jun 15, 2013

The critics of 4-3-1-2 should remember that the two teams which contested the Euro 2012 final were both playing variants of the formation. Italy a 4-3-1-2 with a non-trequartista at the tip, and Spain a 4-3-2-1 of sorts with Iniesta and Silva behind a false 9.

4-2-3-1 is a very physical, pacey formation. When populated with the right technical players and with a good coach, 4-3-1-2 can triumph a 4-2-3-1 easily.

Tadej · Jun 15, 2013

necromancer said:
The critics of 4-3-1-2 should remember that the two teams which contested the Euro 2012 final were both playing variants of the formation. Italy a 4-3-1-2 with a non-trequartista at the tip, and Spain a 4-3-2-1 of sorts with Iniesta and Silva behind a false 9.

4-2-3-1 is a very physical, pacey formation. When populated with the right technical players and with a good coach, 4-3-1-2 can triumph a 4-2-3-1 easily.

Here we go again...berlusconi wish is to play 4-3-1-2 and now is this formation the most successful formation...maybe in the past, but football changed a lot. Berlusconi still living at 20th century, when was this formation popular, like some guys here.

DSM · Jun 15, 2013

4-3-1-2 works with great players which Milan had when they ruled the world between 2002-2007, but now Milan do not have a single great player & will not have one for sometime unless one of the younger players develops.

Milan will not finish in the top 6 in Italy playing this formation & will struggle badly in europe to the extent they may not be in the Champions League after August this year 7 the we will see how they get on in the Europa League.

Milan do not have the greats in defence to play 4-3-1-2 & neither do they have the class in midfield or greats in attack.

Whoever thinks with Milan's current squad & one or two good players may come in that 4-3-1-2 will work his crazy. It would work if Milan had great players which for the last year they have had none after the likes of Nesta, Ibra & before that Pirlo left.

Australiano1980 · Jun 16, 2013

el shaarawy is a option as a trequartista too.. he used to play there.

we did have 3 styles of 4312.. one with boban didnt work out.. another with rui costa and the last one with kaka.. the last 2 work out because of the balance.. and kaka and rui costa were 2 differents styles.

in any squeme u need to find the balance to work out.. ancelotti find his balance when he puts pirlo in front of defense instead of his real position.. thing that therim didnt saw.

necromancer · Jun 16, 2013

I think El Shaarawy can play the same way Insigne plays for the U-21 as well. It's a lopsided 4-3-1-2, which becomes a 4-3-3 when Insigne moves up.

end-er · Jun 26, 2013

I wonder if we could play a de-balanced 4-3-3 with an offensive winger like El Sharaawy (Urby as sub) on the left and a player to drift inside like Honda/Boateng/Saponara on the right.

Carletto played this system for some years with with Pippo as spear, Sheva on the left an Kaka drifting inside and pushing from the right. Then again all those 3 were amazing world class players in their prime and now we have two youngsters and a third non proved guy.

necromancer · Jun 29, 2013

I think this thread is the best place for a quote I read recently.

"Formations are like still photographs. What really matters is how the players develop them while on the pitch."

A coach said this. Sadly, I forgot whom.

Eccolo · Jun 29, 2013

It was Harry Redknapp

necromancer · Jun 29, 2013

Really?? Ouch.

Eccolo · Jun 29, 2013

Nah I wasnt being serious

Patri · Jul 2, 2013

It is always 11 vs 11, no matter which formation you use. With every formation you have advantages and disadvantages at different parts of the field. The important thing is to have you and the opponents play in the way you want. The key to that I4MO are attention to detail, suitability of tactics to your personnel, execution of tactics and adaptability.

Ronin · Jul 24, 2013

Calum1903 said:
Bayern with no wingers and no attacking full backs? Yes please.

DES and Constant are pretty capable of going forward

Ronin · Jul 24, 2013

necromancer said:
In essence, 4-4-1-1 with wide attackers is everyone's current favourite 4-2-3-1. I'd obviously use a wide player like El Shaarawy there instead of Poli. And Boateng and Honda can seamlessly swap positions on-field. Otherwise, that's exactly what I think is our best formation. End product is not Bayern-like though.

------Monto--NdJ-------
--Boa-------------El Shaa--
---------Honda-------
--------Balotelli---------

my idea was for a more posession and control type of game against tough opponents, including SES would be good for a more offensive play

The output would surely not be same as Bayern, but seems like a good formation for the current squad and also kind of suits Allegri's style. +we have one of the most complete strikers in the world - Balo, who could score a lot if given a good amount of decent balls.

necromancer · Jul 24, 2013

Ronin said:
my idea was for a more posession and control type of game against tough opponents, including SES would be good for a more offensive play

The output would surely not be same as Bayern, but seems like a good formation for the current squad and also kind of suits Allegri's style. +we have one of the most complete strikers in the world - Balo, who could score a lot if given a good amount of decent balls.

If we are looking for a possession-based 4-4-1-1 with midfielders in wide positions, you need more creative midfielders than we have at present. I don't think Poli or Boateng are good enough to create opportunities. Balo is versatile, yes, but not that versatile. Will be asking a lot of Honda.

Dunno really, it could work, particularly if the wingbacks overlap effectively as well.

Ronin · Jul 24, 2013

necromancer said:
If we are looking for a possession-based 4-4-1-1 with midfielders in wide positions, you need more creative midfielders than we have at present. I don't think Poli or Boateng are good enough to create opportunities. Balo is versatile, yes, but not that versatile. Will be asking a lot of Honda.

Dunno really, it could work, particularly if the wingbacks overlap effectively as well.

A Boateng with brains could work (on paper, he's got the skills), too bad he ain't got them.
But I agree, we would also need somebody like Schweinsteiger. Maybe Poli could develop into one, but it will take at least 2-3 years.

Ronin · Aug 4, 2013

just saw this today, brilliant trolling... we should use it sometime :lol:

necromancer · Aug 5, 2013

With final stage negotiations going on for Honda and Ljajic, it seems more and more likely that our style will be similar to the flavour of the decade 4-2-3-1.

I don't see either player being benched. So Ljajic and El Shaarawy in wide roles (with plenty of defensive responsibilities) and Honda linking the midfield to the attack - And Monto and De Jong forming that double pivot.

I'm quite happy with this. Is Honda capable of this role though?

(I'm fairly confident about the others playing their part well... Haven't seen enough of Honda to judge.)

milanista1899 · Aug 5, 2013

Ronin said:
just saw this today, brilliant trolling... we should use it sometime

The last time Roma tried something like that under Zeman,i think it ended up being a goal for the opponent..

Goodfella · Aug 5, 2013

necromancer said:
With final stage negotiations going on for Honda and Ljajic, it seems more and more likely that our style will be similar to the flavour of the decade 4-2-3-1.

I would like to believe this too, but I really doubt this is what we are planning, unless the 3 leading stars(B&G&A) aren't cooperating. 3 CMs is the core to Allegri's main ideas. The only thing suggesting that Berlu may force 4-2-3-1 on him is his love for the trequartista, but this is very unlikely since 3 CMs and 2 CFs seem to be just as vital for him. Not to mention, we have way too many CMs to only use 2 of them at the time and more seem to be incoming(Kucka), despite not having managed to get rid of any of the already redundant ones.

Galliani on the other hand doesn't seem to mind it and it might even be his preferred system, presumed by the interviews he gave early last season when a desperate Allegri was trying out all sorts of formations. It could be that he's trying to force 4-2-3-1 on Allegri with the Honda+Ilicic signings, while presenting it to Berlu as 4-3-1-2 with Honda as one of the CMs and Ljajic as the CAM, but actually being 4-2-3-1 with Honda as the CAM and Ljajic as a winger. CAMs in that system tend to not stay too far away from midfield anyway, especially the ones not completely unfamiliar with the CM role, such as Honda..
Wouldn't be the most bizarre thing to happen in Berlu's Milan...

necromancer · Aug 5, 2013

Goodfella said:
I would like to believe this too, but I really doubt this is what we are planning, unless the 3 leading stars(B&G&A) aren't cooperating. 3 CMs is the core to Allegri's main ideas. The only thing suggesting that Berlu may force 4-2-3-1 on him is his love for the trequartista, but this is very unlikely since 3 CMs and 2 CFs seem to be just as vital for him. Not to mention, we have way too many CMs to only use 2 of them at the time and more seem to be incoming(Kucka), despite not having managed to get rid of any of the already redundant ones.

Galliani on the other hand doesn't seem to mind it and it might even be his preferred system, presumed by the interviews he gave early last season when a desperate Allegri was trying out all sorts of formations. It could be that he's trying to force 4-2-3-1 on Allegri with the Honda+Ilicic signings, while presenting it to Berlu as 4-3-1-2 with Honda as one of the CMs and Ljajic as the CAM, but actually being 4-2-3-1 with Honda as the CAM and Ljajic as a winger. CAMs in that system tend to not stay too far away from midfield anyway, especially the ones not completely unfamiliar with the CM role, such as Honda..
Wouldn't be the most bizarre thing to happen in Berlu's Milan...

The latter part is completely believable and not bizarre I'd say. Galliani knows how to deal with stubborn Silvio, and will present it the way Silvio likes.

The former part - about Allegri's insistence on 3-men - I don't think he's as rigid as that. His insistence is more on defensive responsibilities for all players except possibly the CF. Even a 4-2-3-1 of the kind we describe is essentially a 4-5-1 from that perspective. That's more than enough muscle in the right areas when we dont have possession.

Hamsik's game for Napoli in the Emirates Cup - that's how I'd interpret Honda's role in this lineup.

Goodfella · Aug 5, 2013

necromancer said:
The former part - about Allegri's insistence on 3-men - I don't think he's as rigid as that. His insistence is more on defensive responsibilities for all players except possibly the CF. Even a 4-2-3-1 of the kind we describe is essentially a 4-5-1 from that perspective. That's more than enough muscle in the right areas when we dont have possession.

Hamsik's game for Napoli in the Emirates Cup - that's how I'd interpret Honda's role in this lineup.

Theoretically, I think he'd agree with it - but I don't think he trusts the wingers and CAM to always perform the given tasks and not make us more vulnerable to counterattacks than we already are with 3 CMs and two hardworking wingers. It certainly didn't make his fears disappear the way Urby spent most of his off-ball time pressuring the opponents' defenders in and around their box instead of tracking back and performing his midfield tasks, when tried last season - with Bojan as the CAM! His first and more defensive RW pick, which was Noce, obviously didn't work out that well either, albeit for different reasons. He doesn't have much experience of modern 4-2-3-1 AFAIK and to me it's clearly outside his comfort zone and he doesn't have the courage to make it his plan A, or he's just aware of his limitations and doesn't want it to be exposed.

necromancer · Aug 5, 2013

Goodfella said:
Theoretically, I think he'd agree with it - but I don't think he trusts the wingers and CAM to always perform the given tasks and not make us more vulnerable to counterattacks than we already are with 3 CMs and two hardworking wingers. It certainly didn't make his fears disappear the way Urby spent most of his off-ball time pressuring the opponents' defenders in and around their box instead of tracking back and performing his midfield tasks, when tried last season - with Bojan as the CAM! His first and more defensive RW pick, which was Noce, obviously didn't work out that well either, albeit for different reasons. He doesn't have much experience of modern 4-2-3-1 AFAIK and to me it's clearly outside his comfort zone and he doesn't have the courage to make it his plan A, or he's just aware of his limitations and doesn't want it to be exposed.

What you're saying is possible, but contrary to our market moves. If we are set to play a 4-3-3 with two defensive-minded midfielders, we better make one more DM signing quickly rather than chase after Honda. Honda and Ljajic seem to be two completely different moves, with us committed on both to a large degree. Let's see how it goes, but my bet is on a 4-2-3-1 of the kind I mentioned.

Goodfella · Aug 5, 2013

necromancer said:
If we are set to play a 4-3-3 with two defensive-minded midfielders, we better make one more DM signing quickly rather than chase after Honda.

Which would explain the Kucka move, but our midfield options weren't any better last season and 4-3-3 with 3 box-to-box midfielders + Boateng was still our plan A.

necromancer said:
What you're saying is possible, but contrary to our market moves. If we are set to play a 4-3-3 with two defensive-minded midfielders, we better make one more DM signing quickly rather than chase after Honda. ]Honda and Ljajic seem to be two completely different moves, with us committed on both to a large degree. Let's see how it goes, but my bet is on a 4-2-3-1 of the kind I mentioned.

I don't necessarily disagree with this. Like I wrote earlier, Galliani could be doing this to force it on him(without waking papa Berlu up) and maybe changing his mind by having better players to pick from than last season. This is Milan. The route the coach is taking isn't necessarily the same route the VP taking, which isn't necessarily the route the President is taking.

I do of course hope you're right.

necromancer · Aug 5, 2013

^I haven't usually noticed the contradictions once they reach an alignment on these things in pre-season.

At least Ancelotti-Galliani & Allegri-Galliani, are always on the same page. Hoodwinking Berlusconi is one thing (Galliani does that, and rather diplomatically too), but I think the manager and Il Vice Presidente Vicario are always aligned.

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