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View Poll Results: Who will be the winner of Golden Ball this Year ?
Kaka' 28 40.58%
Andrea Pirlo 3 4.35%
Leo Messi 12 17.39%
Zlatan Ibrahimovic 0 0%
Francesco Totti 1 1.45%
Ronaldinho 3 4.35%
Luca Toni 1 1.45%
Frank Ribery 0 0%
Riquelme 0 0%
Francesc Fabregas 1 1.45%
Gigi Buffon 0 0%
Cristiano Ronaldo 9 13.04%
Didier Drogba 0 0%
Steven Gerard 0 0%
Genaro Gattuso 2 2.90%
Wayne Rooney 0 0%
Paul Scholes 2 2.90%
Ruud van Nistelrooy 0 0%
David Villa 1 1.45%
Paolo Maldini 2 2.90%
Deco 0 0%
Thierry Henry 0 0%
Diego 0 0%
Ricardo Quaresma 1 1.45%
Clarence Seedorf 2 2.90%
Miroslav Klose 1 1.45%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-01-2011, 16:44   #381
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Originally Posted by мιℓαηєℓℓσ View Post
Since when did La Liga solemnly become the criteria for deciding who wins this award?

Without Xavi Barcelona are no where near what they with him in the line up. Xavi makes the side tick.
lmao, Xavi was injured/playing with injury last season and Barcelona looked very bad in alot of matches. You are just a follower who recently heard the appreciation for Xavi, THE playmaker. This is true but more a sentimental token of appreciation after all the years. I have seen Barcelona play without Xavi and doing it successfully and unsuccessfully, the same for the absence of Messi. In most of the matches FCB had to break down a bus, and Messi provided that. Xavi was noway near Messi last season. Brilliant player, not as decisive.
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Old 12-01-2011, 17:18   #382
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haha some people.

Messi is clearly a deserving winner. Xavi would have been too but Messi was again the best player in the world in 2010. Best player wins Ballon d'Or. Shock.

and i think someone said something about the league being poor defensively? well if so, how can you honestly think messi wouldn't score all around him in italy? Messi and CR (for example) would score for fun. It's 2011. Superior defending in Italy is a thing of the past, the league is very weak.
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Old 13-01-2011, 01:40   #383
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Originally Posted by мιℓαηєℓℓσ View Post
For someone who scored 60 goals in 64 matches last season he couldn't outscore Landon Donovan in the biggest competition in World Football?

It just shows how poor La Liga is.

Sneijder won the treble and scored vital goals which took Netherlands to the Final of the WC. What else do you have to do to win the award?
maybe he couldn't outscore Donovan in the world cup because Donovan played as a striker and Messi played in midfield as a playmaker, in which he did a good job in by being hugely involved (not assists) in more than 60% of Argentinas goals in the world cup.

and you do realize that those 60 goals he scored last year weren't only in La Liga right? he was last years top scorer in the champions league and he is the top scorer this year in the champions league, just shows you how poor champions league is according to your logic. the Fifa Ballon d'ore is given to the best player in the world not to the one who achieved the most (although that could be a decisive factor) and Messi IS the best in the world, get over it.
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Old 13-01-2011, 01:47   #384
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maybe he couldn't outscore Donovan in the world cup because Donovan played as a striker and Messi played in midfield as a playmaker, in which he did a good job in by being hugely involved (not assists) in more than 60% of Argentinas goals in the world cup.

and you do realize that those 60 goals he scored last year weren't only in La Liga right? he was last years top scorer in the champions league and he is the top scorer this year in the champions league, just shows you how poor champions league is according to your logic. the Fifa Ballon d'ore is given to the best player in the world not to the one who achieved the most (although that could be a decisive factor) and Messi IS the best in the world, get over it.
except Landon was RM in a 4-4-2.....
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Old 13-01-2011, 01:52   #385
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Good article:
http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/new...ld-footballers

There's a video on the page too worth watching (Studio analysis)

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BARCELONA -- A couple of weeks before Lionel Messi, Andres Iniesta and Xavi stood on the Ballon d'Or podium on Monday as the first finalists in the 56-year history of the award to come out of the same youth system, there was a security alert in the La Masia academy where they were trained.

Raynald Denoueix is the French football coach who marched Real Sociedad, starring Xabi Alonso, Nihat and Darko Kovacevic, all the way to the brink of winning La Liga in 2002-03 before being beat out for the top spot by a magnificent Real Madrid side managed by the wonderful Vicente del Bosque.

So even though Denoueix is now a media analyst, he was welcomed to La Masia, next door to Barcelona's iconic Camp Nou stadium and to the youth development section of its Ciudad Deportiva training ground, by Barca head of development Guillermo Amor.

Everything was going swimmingly until Denoueix broke an unwritten rule and alarms went off. "What is the secret of how to train your players to pass and move so well, to press the ball so intelligently and to be so aware of where they should be on the pitch when the ball is lost?" asked the Frenchman.

The atmosphere chilled. "That's like asking Coca-Cola to share their recipe," replied Amor with a very faint half-smile to remove some of the sting.

"Well, would it be OK for me to watch training and draw my own conclusions?" Denoueix added, amiably enough.

"You can have the first 15 minutes just like all the other media," said Amor, who played the fourth-most senior matches for Barca, at fullback, and won more trophies (17) than anyone else at the club.

End of discussion.

And so the mythological status of La Masia grows. But that mythology can be deceiving.

When Iniesta and Xavi lost the vote on Monday, they both spent the next 24 hours repeating two things: Messi is by far the best player in the world, and the overall feeling is that Barca's philosophy has been rightfully rewarded by this award.

Fair enough. La Masia might help hone the skills of Barca's young footballers, but it can't create exceptional talents such as Messi, Xavi and Iniesta unless the brilliance already exists.

The key reason that FC Barcelona won gold, silver and bronze in this first award to amalgamate the FIFA World Player of the Year and the Ballon d'Or is that Messi, Xavi and Iniesta break the mold as footballers.

Teammate Gerard Pique tweeted on Tuesday night, "With respect, I think that Messi is already the greatest footballer ever."

Xavi has been world champion with Spain at the youth and senior level. He's also European champion at both the club and international level, and he was an integral part of Barcelona's all-conquering 2009 campaign. He also leads the club's all-time appearances list with 550.

Iniesta has also received more than a few plaudits. One classic example: After Manchester United lost to Barcelona in the Champions League final in 2009, Wayne Rooney proclaimed to his teammates that Iniesta was "the best player in the world." A year later, of course, the Spaniard scored the winning goal to give Spain its first-ever World Cup trophy.

Exceptional players, all three of them.

La Masia molded them, sure, but Amor's attitude that it's the equivalent to the "secret of Coca Cola's recipe" just indicates how we all like to look beyond the facts and create mythology. Messi is the best example. When he arrived at La Masia just over 10 years ago, nobody, except coach Charly Rexach, put faith in his genius.


"There were a number of coaches in the youth development system at Barca who tried to change me, but I just ignored them," Messi said.
When I asked Messi about how he developed his preternatural skills, this was his answer: "I've always played this way. I do what is instinctive. I rarely plan in advance and I never study opposition players. There were a number of coaches in the youth development system at Barca who tried to change me, but I just ignored them and kept playing my game."

This fabled La Masia system was, for all intents and purposes, put in place by Johan Cruyff. Upon his arrival as coach in 1988, Cruyff was horrified that all the age levels at FC Barcelona were trained differently and played different formations dependent on which kind of man was in charge of their development. So the Dutchman imposed a few rules which abide to this day. One, all age levels must be trained to control the ball, have the vision to know where they will put the ball with one touch when they get it, and have the ability to pass well and to play in a 4-3-3 system. Two, the system had to train them to adore the ball -- to treat it like a cherished lover. Three, that FC Barcelona players needed to hunger for victory, but to achieve it with flair.

Yet not only is Cruyff no longer involved in La Masia, he is barely welcome at the club these days as he doesn't get along with new president Sandro Rosell. From creator to outcast.

The La Masia is also the same system that failed to promote Cesc Fabregas or Gerard Pique quickly enough through the ranks, to the extent that both of them left, Pique for Manchester United and Fabregas for Arsenal. Pique was brought back in 2008 and is now a footballing colossus. Fabregas is a magnificent midfielder and leader, but he remains -- for now -- just agonizingly out of the reach of Barcelona for reasons of price and, perhaps, the player's loyalty to Arsenal.

So make sure that one thing is not ignored when conversations spring up about the love affair the world is having with FC Barcelona right now and La Masia is described as a kind of Camelot fantasy where all the knights wear shining armor, goodness and virtue flow like milk, and all the battles are won. It ain't so.

The truth is that Barcelona has a golden generation of utterly exceptional footballers. La Masia helps complement their talents, but it's not responsible for them. No academy can "create" Messi, possibly the most skilled footballer ever.

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Old 13-01-2011, 02:02   #386
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These superlatives about Messi are getting more exaggerated by the day. I know Pique is an idiot, but a professional journalist from ESPN declaring Messi the most skillful player ever? wtf??? Collective memory really appears to last not more than a couple of years.


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Old 13-01-2011, 02:16   #387
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Originally Posted by Senatore_M84 View Post
Good article:
http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/new...ld-footballers

There's a video on the page too worth watching (Studio analysis)
It's very easy to ignore the influence of the system. I understand the point of the article but it's written without enough knowledge on the subject. More a personal opinion.

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I know Pique is an idiot

How old are you? I'm guessing you're quite young.
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Old 13-01-2011, 02:32   #388
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It's very easy to ignore the influence of the system. I understand the point of the article but it's written without enough knowledge on the subject. More a personal opinion.




How old are you? I'm guessing you're quite young.
I think the article has a great point, but is poorly written edited. He didn't complete his point.

You need to look no further than sheer number of top quality players la maisa has produced to know it's best youth system in world. Players like Pedro, Busquets etc. But the point is players like Messi, Xavi are just generational stars. A youth system is not going to produce players on that level ever year....

I'd agree with that. A top class youth system will always produce good players and develop them to their fullest. But not everyone's fullest potential is the hieght of Xavi or Messi.
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Old 13-01-2011, 02:49   #389
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These superlatives about Messi are getting more exaggerated by the day. I know Pique is an idiot, but a professional journalist from ESPN declaring Messi the most skillful player ever? wtf??? Collective memory really appears to last not more than a couple of years.
I like you and other Madrid fans because you're automatically immune to the Messi and Barca hype.
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Old 13-01-2011, 02:50   #390
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Okay, I see what you mean now. The youth system has a great influence on the players but it is true that it won't always produce people like Messi, Xavi all the time. I agree with that.

But for example, I don't believe it's a simple coincidence that Messi, Piqué and Fàbregas (of the same year) have become such good players. The work that has been done after Cruijff's time as manager is amazing.

People close to the club believe that Thiago and Gerard Deulofeu will be the biggest success stories in the next 5 years. Deulofeu is from Catalunya, he has been great for the youth teams of España. His style may be more direct than the typical youth player of Barça though, some even compared him to Cristiano Ronaldo. He has recently been linked with Real Madrid sadly, don't know what will happen.
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Old 13-01-2011, 04:16   #391
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Let's not lie though. Pique went to man utd. Fabregas went to arsenal. Fergie and wenger are two of top handful of talent developers over the past 25 years and in both cases there influence shows. Particularly fabregas who came as more of a xavi clone and is now a muuch more advanced direct trequartista type. He went to arsenal same age messi went to barca so its only fair to credit wenger a bit for his transformation as much as it is to credit barca for his fundamental development.

A start contrast is barca yourg who showed great promise on youth level (or in some cases higher) and left early for poor situations. Giovani dos santos is prime example for me as he was very impressive at 17/18 then moved prematurely to bad situations and really hasn't reached where he could be. There are other examples who have been poached and just not developed. Fran merida, iago at jube. Even milan grabbed a kid over summer though he's only 18 (carmona)
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Old 13-01-2011, 04:42   #392
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and i think someone said something about the league being poor defensively? well if so, how can you honestly think messi wouldn't score all around him in italy? Messi and CR (for example) would score for fun. It's 2011. Superior defending in Italy is a thing of the past, the league is very weak.
As team defending...Serie A is much better than La Liga, and actually being able to apply the defensive tactics Serie A also beats La Liga (re watch Barcelona-Deportivo, Deportivo was supposly "defending" made some serious mistakes that you can't ever make if you're actually having 9 players in your own area).

And except for a few defenders in Barcelona and RM, they're not better than Serie A's...defenders in La Liga like to back away from the forward, leaving all the space in the world to him.

Both situations ended in goal, but just look at the difference (and I'm comparing a Brescia defender-team on relegation zone- vs a Valencia defender). Both goals happened same day.



Go to 1:08. And with few exceptions, this is the norm in defense if you see any of the +3 goals per game that RM and Barcelona score. Defenders just back away, leave a ridiculous amount of space. I know Xavi, Iniesta and the rest of Barca's midfield is great and they have amazing chemistry, but if you never pressure them, well no wonder why they have that ridiculous amount of non misplaced passes, and assists. And its not like they can't lose the ball, just watch Inter-Barcelona in Meazza, with Xavi getting dispossessed (which led to Inter goals).

And on top of that teams in La Liga like to use (why? I dunno) a high defensive line vs Barcelona, that's like the most amateurish tactical mistake ever to make against a team like Barcelona, basically bending over.


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Old 13-01-2011, 04:47   #393
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^^waow so much knowledge being spoken


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Old 13-01-2011, 05:29   #394
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Let's not lie though. Pique went to man utd. Fabregas went to arsenal. Fergie and wenger are two of top handful of talent developers over the past 25 years and in both cases there influence shows. Particularly fabregas who came as more of a xavi clone and is now a muuch more advanced direct trequartista type. He went to arsenal same age messi went to barca so its only fair to credit wenger a bit for his transformation as much as it is to credit barca for his fundamental development.
I never said their time in England hasn't been important. But Piqué is a central defender whose range of passing is very impressive. Fàbregas is the best passer of the ball in England. The influence of Barça is clear in both cases, these are not players made in England, far from it. That's not to say playing there hasn't helped them improve as players. Also Fàbregas was never really a "Xavi clone" in my opinion, he also moved to Arsenal at a later age than Messi to Barça. Three years older actually.

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A start contrast is barca yourg who showed great promise on youth level (or in some cases higher) and left early for poor situations. Giovani dos santos is prime example for me as he was very impressive at 17/18 then moved prematurely to bad situations and really hasn't reached where he could be. There are other examples who have been poached and just not developed. Fran merida, iago at jube. Even milan grabbed a kid over summer though he's only 18 (carmona)
Giovani is an idiot. He was often compared to Ronaldinho but I never had that hope for him, he's a man who thinks more of himself than he should. He was a good young player, nothing more. He left after asking for a higher salary. The club refused of course as he had done little to earn anything more. His father is the cause of most problems with him and also with Jonathan. At first I had higher hopes for JDS but it seems once more, his father may kill his own son's career. I really hope this doesn't happen though.

It's difficult for many young players at a club like Barça. A 16 year old central midfielder now looks at the first team. He sees Xavi, Iniesta and maybe Fàbregas next summer. A defensive midfielder sees Busquets and then the signing of Mascherano. It's difficult for these players to have patience. Barça nearly lost Xavi to Milan this way. But Xavi should be an example to these young players. If they're good enough, they will get a chance, leaving to play first team football at a younger age is not always the solution.

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As team defending...Serie A is much better than La Liga, and actually being able to apply the defensive tactics Serie A also beats La Liga (re watch Barcelona-Deportivo, Deportivo was supposly "defending" made some serious mistakes that you can't ever make if you're actually having 9 players in your own area).

And except for a few defenders in Barcelona and RM, they're not better than Serie A's...defenders in La Liga like to back away from the forward, leaving all the space in the world to him.

Both situations ended in goal, but just look at the difference (and I'm comparing a Brescia defender-team on relegation zone- vs a Valencia defender). Both goals happened same day.



Go to 1:08. And with few exceptions, this is the norm in defense if you see any of the +3 goals per game that RM and Barcelona score. Defenders just back away, leave a ridiculous amount of space. I know Xavi, Iniesta and the rest of Barca's midfield is great and they have amazing chemistry, but if you never pressure them, well no wonder why they have that ridiculous amount of non misplaced passes, and assists. And its not like they can't lose the ball, just watch Inter-Barcelona in Meazza, with Xavi getting dispossessed (which led to Inter goals).

And on top of that teams in La Liga like to use (why? I dunno) a high defensive line vs Barcelona, that's like the most amateurish tactical mistake ever to make against a team like Barcelona, basically bending over.
Showing me a few videos doesn't tell me anything (I don't mean offense, I know you are making an example). From what I see watching both leagues often is that the quality of defending in Italy is nothing compared to what it once was. You speak of high lines (for purpose of pressure on the defence and midfield of Barça) in España. If you're suggesting teams in Italy would sit back and invite pressure on themselves, it would be hopeless. Is simple, the defending is not good enough. Barça could score against every team in Italy. And then what? Do they continue to play everyone behind the ball and defend? Because coming out to play would expose a lot of the teams as being quite weak, they would be running into a sword. You must put pressure on the midfield of Barça. And as with many teams in España, it eventually fails. I don't see how Messi (or barça as a team) would score much less in Italy, the defending is not particulary impressive.
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Old 13-01-2011, 05:40   #395
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milan's best attacking year when they played a lineups of pippo, sheva, kaka, pirlo, seedorf, serginho.. had subs like cafu, rui, a young gila only managed 85 goals, which is a serie A record....

(that was 2005/6)

Barca would win serie A. I don't doubt that. But they wouldn't score as much.... it'd resemble the spanish NT a lot more.... lots of posession, not as many goals. I truly believe that. Even with Messi. They wouldn't be less dominant, just different. Any team in bottom half of table would sit 10 back. Press with front 3-4, and 6 purely back....

It's just a difference in style
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Old 13-01-2011, 05:46   #396
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The problem is not the quality, its the other things.
Low- mid tier club is maybe better than what serie A have.

But serie A teams will not bend over that easily like c4m said, teams in italy will rather 0-1 result over 0-2, 0-2 over 0-3, and so on.

Which means they're will more consistent playing their negative tactic a whole game, not like "fuck it" mentality like in spain after bartha scores.

Yeah la liga teams quality might be better, but no way score 4-0,5-0 will happens in every week in serie A.


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Old 13-01-2011, 06:04   #397
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Ow let's play that game: Sneijder was lucky, showed no skill whatsoever and was surprised he scored the goals he scored.
Hahahahahaha. I stopped reading here. Lucky?... Is that you Wild?


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Old 13-01-2011, 06:06   #398
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Xavi was noway near Messi last season. Brilliant player, not as decisive.
Really?
He seemed to be way more decisive than Messi in the World Cup. Maybe you were socializing with other trolls under their bridge during that time.


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Old 13-01-2011, 06:11   #399
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except Landon was RM in a 4-4-2.....
except that Donovans two goals against Slovenia and Algeria came when Bradley changed his position to a forward in a 4-3-3.
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Old 13-01-2011, 06:23   #400
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Sneijder vital for Inter?
Really?

When Intermerda played Barcelona Sneijder scored a goal and layed another assist for Milito. How decisive was Messi in that match?... Actually, over the two legs how decisive was Messi?

How decisive was Messi when Germany hammered Argentina 4-0?

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not more than Milito was, the whole defensive line was, Mourinho was. No player stood out in Inter nor Holland nor Spain. There was one player which did stand out, Messi
Hahaha, how is this helping your argument?

Sneijder and Milito definitely should've been in the final three of the Ballon D'or list. If this system was under the old system, which was abolished this season, Sneijder would've won the award in a landslide.


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