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View Poll Results: Who will win La Liga and which two teams will complete the top 4?
Real Madrid - Winners 53 64.63%
Barcelona - Winners 39 47.56%
Valencia - Top 4 31 37.80%
Real Betis - Top 4 13 15.85%
Sevilla - Top 4 19 23.17%
Real Sociedad - Top 4 12 14.63%
Atletico Madrid - Top 4 55 67.07%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 23-08-2011, 16:45   #10161
The Bear
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What you are saying applies to the year 2000. You are 11 years late my friend. Serie A is horse-shit and so is the NT. I love Italy and loath Barshitlona, but that is the sad reality.

Your use of big words and nice grammar, as flattering as it is, doesn't make your point stronger. But it does make you look smarter so kudos. Anyway, whichever way you put it, we are the strongest team in Serie A by a mile, yet we crashed out to Spurs in CL while losing 1-0 at home and being outplayed in the 1st half.

Ffs on paper Napoli are 2nd best team in Italy and they lost 5-0 to Barca B yet you are still arguing? Stop deluding yourself man.
Which of my points are outdated, do elaborate. I can back my argument about there being more money in Serie A than La Liga with stats, if you want.

I am not persisting in delusion here, I'll be the first to admit that the league is nowhere near its previous level. Simply providing an alternative point of view to the monotonous criticisms targeted at Italy. Half of the armchair brigade on this forum has its tongue so far up Barcelona's ass, it's difficult to understand what they're doing on this forum.

In my time on here, I've noticed that half of the posters who "support" Milan don't watch much Italian football outside of the Milanese duo, and instead focus their attention on debating who'll finish in the top four in the Premier League or the goings-on in Spain. Just look at some of the comments in the Montolivo and Aquilani threads, for fuck's sake, it would be kind to say that even 20% of the posters who commented watched a full Juventus or Fiorentina game last season that didn't involve Milan.

Italian football is in dire need of reform, people don't realise what a huge difference progressions in stadium development will do for the league. The extra 100-150m that the likes of Bayern, Man United and Barcelona generate per season is largely down to matchday revenue, directly influenced by self-owned stadiums. Serie A won't return to its previous levels until, first and foremost, Milan and Juventus do. It's no use having a competitive league when your top teams can't make an impression in Europe.

And like I've stated before, Juventus will surpass Milan and Inter by some distance financially, and begin to earn close to Real, Bayern, Barcelona and United depending on whether they get back in the Champions League for good. Surely if "we are the strongest team in Serie A" and you factor in the squad's strength, you have to consider how understrength we were against Tottenham? It was less than two years ago that Liverpool lost to a side that finished 11th in Serie A both home and away, are we going to use it as a measure of the strength of both leagues at the time too?

Secondly, we didn't field our strongest team in last year's Gamper either, neither did we have Zlatan and Robinho while Barcelona had the privilege of playing their best player. They didn't come close to dominating the game like they do others, I don't need to remind you of the scoreline either. And like the poster above highlighted, should we make assumptions about Spain's quality because of their continuous friendly defeats to Portugal, Argentina and Italy? Is a weakened Napoli's dominant performance against Villarreal last season irrelevant when judging their true quality?

Also, I don't intend to give further credibility to my point with "big words" at all, nor do I sit behind my computer screen thinking of ways to appear smart on a football message board, but I'll take the compliment. I know those with reading disabilities will complain about the wall of text, but I've done my best to present my point of view with utmost clarity here. Feel free to disagree, but my fingers refuse to go any further at the moment.
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Old 23-08-2011, 17:17   #10162
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I don't see jube simply making more than double(real madrid and barcelona make x2) their current revenue simply because of a new stadium, the stadium is going to help them, but not to an extent where they would rival the top 4 clubs in terms of revenue.


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Old 23-08-2011, 17:29   #10163
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I don't see jube simply making more than double(real madrid and barcelona make x2) their current revenue simply because of a new stadium, the stadium is going to help them, but not to an extent where they would rival the top 4 clubs in terms of revenue.
I agree, I don't think the stadium alone will catapult them to the top. But the return of Champions League broadcasting revenue + the self-owned stadium + commercial revenue that includes shops and restaurants around the stadium + more lucrative sponsorship deals as a result of being a major European force again, and yeah, it's realistic for them to challenge the big four. Barca and especially Real may be a little out of reach for the time being, but Bayern and Man Utd made less than 150m more than Juve, and they had the advantage of Champions League football.
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Old 23-08-2011, 17:36   #10164
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Just because a team attacked doesn't neccessairly mean it was better. Spurs outwitted us and the Italian way too. At San Siro they attacked the fuck out of us in the 1st half but couldn't score, and in the 2nd they sat back as Allegri threw our men forward so eventually they scored on a counter. And the 2nd game, you know, they just needed 0-0 and we attacked like mad men so thry sat back and let us play. Sad to say it, but Uncle 'Arry outsmarted Allegri.

They fully deserved to go through as they were better over 180 mins.

And yes, Italy were better than Spain. In a friendly.
There was no out-smarting of any sort which 'Arry performed.

In the return leg, we were better in every way (remember that the likes of Man Utd had struggled tremendously at White Hart Lane last season) and were just unlucky to not win.

In the home fixture, we were either too complacent or were feeling the pinch of missing so many players.

I don't think any sort of generalizations can be made from the Spurs matches. That was not the same Milan side which was super-solid for most part of last season.

And Serie A still has top-notch quality if tactical football is what you like. No other league can even compete because no other league cares about tactics the way Serie A coaches do.

In terms of quality within the Serie A product (OK, first I'm assuming that you like the product that Serie A offers - tactical football with some rather talented players), it was at its worst in 2007 or 08 or so. Since 2009, I think there has been a steady improvement. The re-rise of teams like Napoli, Genoa and season-stealers like Udinese, Fiorentina are testaments to this.

At the end of the day, you like the league which has the kind of football you like. But the kind of football in Serie A is on an upward swing now after the lows of Calciopoli.


EDIT - So much about football. Financially, whatever The Bear has said is accurate. Serie A will trail unless sufficient infra investments are not made.

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Old 23-08-2011, 17:39   #10165
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To Bear - Sadly can't quote this long post, iPhone:

- I like you man. You are smart and respectable and it's a nice change to most people here.

- I do agree with you on most points like the Barshitlona dicksucking, PL wankfest, extreme level of idiocy by most members, desperate need of Serie A stadiums, and lack of enthusiasm for La Nazionale and Serie A in general from experts over here.

- You mentioned Italy's tactics as a strong point for Serie A. This is where I disagree. Look at Napoli and how they collapse vs any continental team. Noy referring to yesterday's friendly but in general like last year's EL. Look at Roma hiring an incompetent Barca B shitbag to try and copy the Catalan cunts' football. Or Juve with last year's 4-4-2 Delneri or this year's 4-2-4 Conte. My point is most tactical rennovations are coming from Barshit or Mou and Italians are either copying or stuck in mediocricity. And any club that attempts to succeed has to sell of its best players ala Udinese. Udine, Genoa, Fascist Laziale cunts, and Cesena have nice projects going on, but compared to the restt of the big leagues (ENG, ESP, GER) they are average and it shows when they meet in Europe. Plus the effect of retatarded impatient owners like Zampa, Cellino and Laurentis, with the lack of safety and shit facilities in stadiums, and decline of clubs like Fiorentina due to lack of funds. All that adds up to a very low quality Serie A. For the record, I'm a sucker for defensive tactics and I prefer it to crazy attacking football, but what we see in Italy nowadays isn't defensive tactics, it's pure shit football.

I'm enjoying this convo (it's rare to find someone to discuss footbqll with here) and I couldn't get into details or write properly cos of fucking phone. But I hope we could discuss this (or any football matter) further. And btw, I did mean the big words thing as a compliment, so glad you took it as one.
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Old 23-08-2011, 18:23   #10166
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Originally Posted by Fiero View Post
To Bear - Sadly can't quote this long post, iPhone:

- I like you man. You are smart and respectable and it's a nice change to most people here.

- I do agree with you on most points like the Barshitlona dicksucking, PL wankfest, extreme level of idiocy by most members, desperate need of Serie A stadiums, and lack of enthusiasm for La Nazionale and Serie A in general from experts over here.

- You mentioned Italy's tactics as a strong point for Serie A. This is where I disagree. Look at Napoli and how they collapse vs any continental team. Noy referring to yesterday's friendly but in general like last year's EL. Look at Roma hiring an incompetent Barca B shitbag to try and copy the Catalan cunts' football. Or Juve with last year's 4-4-2 Delneri or this year's 4-2-4 Conte. My point is most tactical rennovations are coming from Barshit or Mou and Italians are either copying or stuck in mediocricity. And any club that attempts to succeed has to sell of its best players ala Udinese. Udine, Genoa, Fascist Laziale cunts, and Cesena have nice projects going on, but compared to the restt of the big leagues (ENG, ESP, GER) they are average and it shows when they meet in Europe. Plus the effect of retatarded impatient owners like Zampa, Cellino and Laurentis, with the lack of safety and shit facilities in stadiums, and decline of clubs like Fiorentina due to lack of funds. All that adds up to a very low quality Serie A. For the record, I'm a sucker for defensive tactics and I prefer it to crazy attacking football, but what we see in Italy nowadays isn't defensive tactics, it's pure shit football.

I'm enjoying this convo (it's rare to find someone to discuss footbqll with here) and I couldn't get into details or write properly cos of fucking phone. But I hope we could discuss this (or any football matter) further. And btw, I did mean the big words thing as a compliment, so glad you took it as one.
Fair point, and it is refreshing to have a discussion with a poster who isn't a Barca-fawning parasite and resorts to pathetic insults like "fanboy" and "groupie", which degenerates most arguments into meaningless ad hominem drivel.

But anyway, I think what you highlight is definitely a cause for decline: Capello, Lippi, Trapattoni, Ancelotti simply don't manage Italian clubs anymore, so the burden falls with a lot of inexperienced, young coaches, who are seldom in the right environment to express their qualities because of trigger-happy presidents. But if we're talking tactical diversity? No league in Europe used as many different formations as Serie A last season, but the level of tactical knowledge that Italian coaches possess becomes ineffective in Europe quite often, where Serie A teams have regularly been the victims of catenaccio.

"Udine, Genoa, Fascist Laziale cunts, and Cesena have nice projects going on, but compared to the restt of the big leagues (ENG, ESP, GER) they are average and it shows when they meet in Europe" - how often do the mid-table teams of Italy, Spain and England meet though? Last Anglo-Italian knockout stage tie I remember in the UEFA Cup/Europa is Udinese-Tottenham two years ago, which ended 2-0 to Di Natale and co. Oh, and there was Juve-Fulham too, but that was such an amusing episode that I won't even bother justifying their defeat.

I think what Serie A performances in Europe indicate is that they've been inconsistently shit in the last few years. Using 2006 as the cut-off point (worldwide criticism, scandal, "Italian football in crisis"...) then Milan, Inter, Juventus, Roma and Fiorentina have since beaten the likes of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Bayern, Real and Barcelona, and not only once too. The inconsistent "shit-ness" (for want of a better word) lies in the defeats sandwiched between those victories - i.e. Spurs, Schalke, the 7-1, scoring zero goals in the Anglo-Italian ties one season etc etc.
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Old 23-08-2011, 18:41   #10167
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Some levels below in terms of what? Finances? There's more money, on the whole, in Italian football than in Spain. Entertainment? Quality of football? Entertainment is subjective, I can find great entertainment in watching a brilliant defensive performance; others may not. Give me calcio and all its tactical endeavours over the mindless long ball, kick-and-rush football played by a bunch of alcoholics with no technical skill, but each to their own.
I'm definitely not talking about finances but just footballing ability. Like Fiero said, tactical Italian brilliance is from the past. Face it, the days that teams like Vicenza, Lazio or Parma (just some random examples of "lesser" teams who got far in Europe) could do somehing in the UEFA league or Cup Winners Cup is LONG gone my friend. Only Milan and Inter can mean something in Europe (max. quarter finals), the rest of the teams are pure sh*t. Napoli is a joke, look at last years Europa League, same goes for Palermo, Lazio and all the other teams. Even Juve has become ridiculous. Italian teams don't inspire fear in the other teams like they used to do anymore, on the contrary, foreign fans and journalists mock Italian football (and maybe rightly so).

The big teams in the big leagues are superior to the two big clubs in Italy, no denying the fact, calling the likes of Barcelona, Real, Man U, Chelsea etc. divers, cheaters, arrogant f*cks doens't change the fact they are superior to Milan. Milan COULD beat them, but the could more easily beat Milan.

And the teams progressing in the Europa League are smaller Spanish, German and Portuguese teams, Italian teams don't have what it takes, and I loathe the bullsh*t argument coaches often use of: "Serie A is more important". They just aren't good enough. Deal with it.

But I agree with you on some level. I will always prefer Italian football, it gets to me. I couldn't give a sh*t about the "Clasico" (Oh what a name ) or Arsenal-Tottenham or any other idiot derby in the world. But if I see a Milan-Inter or Roma-Lazio the world stops for 90 minutes and I enjoy every second of the game. But I'm not blind that I don't see the difference in quality...


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Old 23-08-2011, 23:14   #10168
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I don't have to deal with it, because I'm not denying it. You're using the Europa League to support your point about Italian teams being "some levels behind" the other top European leagues, when Premier League teams haven't done much better in the competition either.

Serie A is more important from a financial point of view, the distribution of money in the Europa League is absolutely peanuts. Most of the Italian teams who can realistically qualify for the competition make more money from television rights by winning a few league games than going all the way in the Europa.
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Old 23-08-2011, 23:41   #10169
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Real Madrid And Financial Fair Play

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2011...fair-play.html
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Old 24-08-2011, 19:00   #10170
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22:30 Real Madrid - Galatasaray

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Nuri Sahin to make his debut tonight for RM.
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Old 24-08-2011, 19:24   #10171
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nvm
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Old 25-08-2011, 03:17   #10172
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22:30 Real Madrid - Galatasaray

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Nuri Sahin to make his debut tonight for RM.
Was he any decent? Wot was it, 10 or so Mil? Milan shud have made a bid.


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Old 25-08-2011, 08:00   #10173
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Was he any decent? Wot was it, 10 or so Mil? Milan shud have made a bid.
Lol, heard they didnt even select him

Xabi Alonso was superb, two assists and Benzema was great off the bench as well, got the winner.

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Old 25-08-2011, 14:14   #10174
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La Liga strike called off.
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Old 26-08-2011, 22:51   #10175
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Barcelona look so bored celebrating their super cup win..
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Old 26-08-2011, 23:00   #10176
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I think it might be a tough game for Barca on Monday.
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Old 27-08-2011, 00:25   #10177
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http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/edi...-losers-of-the

alot of goal.com pundits have sahin labelled flop signing of summer. Has he not settled yet?

hmmm, if so :Gold Tie:


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Only Milan can punish it's own fans by qualifying for CL. I'm off to sleep, another year wasted. When will this fucker be fired..
#RnB
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Old 27-08-2011, 00:59   #10178
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Why do you go on goal.com dude? it's a terrible site
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Old 27-08-2011, 08:42   #10179
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http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/edi...-losers-of-the

alot of goal.com pundits have sahin labelled flop signing of summer. Has he not settled yet?

hmmm, if so :Gold Tie:
He got injured, IIRC.


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Old 27-08-2011, 10:21   #10180
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Was injured ....only recently started training with the team ....Goal ....only time I would hope that they are right
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