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View Poll Results: Who was a better striker
Ronaldo 1 11.11%
Marco Van Basten 5 55.56%
They were both equally good since Marco wasn't that fast and Ronaldo couldn't head a beach ball 3 33.33%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 29-03-2008, 19:58   #81
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And you are ............ Lemme just say that I hope you too don't find men beautiful (no offense )

PS. Oh, and that my opinion 'sucks' doesn't necessarily mean its incorrect


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Old 29-03-2008, 21:07   #82
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Originally Posted by madtherchot
[edited] Because there was no doubt then that Ronaldo wasn't injury prone, and all blame was of course, Milan Lab's. And there was no possible way that Gilardino would eventually have a better season than Ronaldo (as shitty as that sounds) ... Yep, and as events have turned out, I couldn't possibly have been more correct, and you, well ... wrong.
[edited] That has nothing to do with the discussion or the disrespect you show towards Ronaldo not only as a Milan player but as a LEGEND of world football. We were talking about overall ability and past achievements and you posted quite a bit of nonsense like the Sheva example. [edited]

Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
In the same way, its not possible to think that Zidane is in fact the more complete footballer, and that Ronaldo did indeed have quite a talented bunch behind him in '02. And perhaps Brazil wouldn't be five time champs had it not been for ... Rivaldo. All this is preposterous nonsense ...
Again youre trying to turn around your previous ridiculous conclusion that Zidane dominated WC1998 and Ronaldo didn't in 2002. Did Zidane not have a talented bunch behind him which even managed to eliminate opponents without him? Wouldn't France be a champion without the fantastic goalie and back four, and Djorkaeff, Petit, Deschamps? No world cup winning team has been crap you know, but that doesn't mean Ronaldo's achievement in 2002 is to be devalued. He was better than Rivaldo in 2002. End of. As far as complete players go I never said Zidane wasn't, but so was Ronaldo, only in a more striker oriented way. And he had the whoa element, the flashyness & attractiveness which separated him from other complete strikers, including Van Basten as his closest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
And I don't need to look around other websites to substantiate my opions ... I've seen and I've compared, and surprise, I've come up with an opinion of my own. MVB was probably the best forward ever ... was surely a better passer, team player, airier threat + poacher than Ronaldo. He wasn't your stereotypical fancy Brazilian dribbler, but he used intelligent routines at the right time ... and IMO proved more effective. I have no doubt whatsoever that he had the better 'football brain' as did Zidane, and no power, strength, or indeed fetish can make up for it.
Ronaldo being on Pele and Maradona level is my opinion as well, but its backed up by many and that gives it more weight. Ronaldo has incredible football intelligence which I don't think is lower than any other player in history and his instinct for positioning (meaning making runs onto throughballs as a much more difficult task than getting in the right position when youre in the box to tap or head in) is better than Van Basten's.
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Originally Posted by madtherchot
PS. Of course I'm not beautiful you idiot
You're not many things.


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Last edited by Italian Tsar; 04-04-2008 at 16:47.
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Old 29-03-2008, 21:16   #83
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[edited]

MVB, Zidane > Ronaldo. Period.


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Last edited by Italian Tsar; 04-04-2008 at 16:48.
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Old 29-03-2008, 21:41   #84
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Originally Posted by madtherchot
One only needs to watch Euro '88 to be convinced. After 6 months-or-so out with an injury, the 22-23 year old then AC Milan striker came in to score a hattrick (or brace) in a must win match against England.

I'll stress my point again. Ronaldo was a great striker. There's no doubting that. But to label him equal to Maradona and Pele is preposterous. Especially since you're ignoring the many brilliant players that are pretty high up there in the second tier of football greats.

Ronaldo will be remember for his World Cup performances. Especially in 2002, where he had a spectacular array of supporting cast (Rivaldo played the most important role IMO), and Brazil's only real difficult matches were against England and a German side that had their best player suspended (all due respect to the other opponents). But credit must be given where its due ... he is the all-time leading WC scorer, which is quite an achievement. But here's an interesting point ... I honestly do think that had Sheva been Brazilian, he would have easily been in Ronaldo's shoes ... and perhaps even scored more

As for France '98, no matter what is said, there was only one star in that tournament, and that was Zidane. A player who, IMO, was the best player of his generation. I wont go into a debate of player attributes, but I'm sure the majority of football fans will agree with me when I say he was simply head and shoulders above his peers ... and that includes the "beautiful" player himself. Fat is beautiful

Ronaldo9 honestly I don't know why you bother with madtherchot Zidane dominated ??WC 98 roflmafo!!! Zidane was good no doubt but to say he dominated..when really the main attraction was Ronaldo is beyond ridiculous...... zidane even got red carded and missed a game while defenses were going like every time Ronaldo ran at them......as a matter of a fact Ronaldo 2002 was nowhere close to Ronaldo 98....the only advantage was the QUANTITY of goals he scored....[edited] Ronaldo wasn't even the best player in 2002 Rivaldo was but statistically ronaldo was better.

How could Zidane be the best of his generation, when at his peak he was duking it out with Rivaldo, Figo and Nedved?? Ronaldo at his peak won the WOPY TWICE in a row.....also being the youngest to do it......and beating the likes of Batigol, Weah etc ....Infact Zidane won his wopy in 99 only because of the WC....Ronaldo was second.

Everybody is jerking off to Zidane's performances in Real...but nobody seems to care that as soon as Makalele, Hierro and Del Bosque left what a shit team Real were.... Zidane always needs a fantastic squad behind him that's the truth

Last edited by Italian Tsar; 04-04-2008 at 16:49.
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Old 29-03-2008, 23:05   #85
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Originally Posted by atreides602
Ronaldo was indeed the star in 1998 wc , i still remember the parmalat comercial, when a young ronaldo was feed by his moom with a good glass of milk
Lol that might be so but when Ronaldo was finished with any opponent thy actually were dead (like Germany in '02) or couldn't walk for days

Hey Ronaldo9 ask Madtherchot why he continually harps on Ronaldo's injury/fitness problems while MVB actually retired due to injury. You ask him....I'm not very good at speaking ...er...er....his language

Last edited by Italian Tsar; 04-04-2008 at 17:17.
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Old 30-03-2008, 01:02   #86
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mam - maybe because mvb wasn't fakeing injuries to go dancing in RIO during carnavals ,dunno
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Old 30-03-2008, 13:09   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by about Ronaldo
Excuse me for interfering, but you are tripping. If you think Ronaldo did not have a marquee game during that period, then you have not paid enough attention to the season.

Your point is moot because Ronaldo had the necessary marquee game in order to be considered the best in the world.
I can give you some examples. For instance, take the game against Valencia at the beginning of November 1996. In that game, Ronaldo scores twice after running through the middle of Valencia's defense and another one with a powerful finish from about 20 yards. And the last goal, after succesfully taking on 4 defenders, was a game winner !
I can point out a similar performance against Atletico (and no, Atletico did not suck as much as now in 1997) in April 1997, when he scored a hat-trick against them, one of his goal being again of the highest quality, a faint to the right to beat the defender and a perfect shot from more than 20 yards.
Since the game against Compostela was mentioned, every one remembers that goal, but does anyone remembedr that match ? How Ronaldo played ? Barca beat Compostela 5 - 1, Ronaldo scored twice and created two other goals, one after he left a defender on his ass with an elastico and another one with one of his shots being deflected into the net by a defender. Two goals and two assists, after superb plays, what more can be said ?
In regard to that game, there is only one player I've seen to have a similar goal/assist ratio in a match on a regular basis and that is Edson Arantes do Nascimento. If you have watched games of Pele in his pomp, you'll know what I mean.
Ronaldo was unlikely to reach the same number of assists, because as a number 9 he does not get in the position to supply his teammates as much as a number 10 (Pele), yet it seems that he was developing fast this aspect of his game. The game against Denmark in 1998, when Ronaldo puts through balls for Rivaldo and Bebeto, stands evidence.

So, actually Ronaldo had such games against Valencia and At.Madrid. Plus I think there was also a 3 - 2 against Madrid in Copa del Rey with a top-class performance of Ronaldo. Can't recall details of that one though since Copa del Rey wasn't broadcasted in my country.

Add to this his performances day in day out in La Liga. The all-time goals. The plays. Etc, Etc.

Besides there is another issue. Ronaldo was implementing at the time a style of fotball which was rarely seen in the history of football. The player-alien who battles entire defenses on his own and beats them singlehandedly, cutting through hordes of opposing players as if they weren't there. It's a very explosive style and it's so rare because it requires a package of abilities which very few players posess, each honed to perfection :

- exquisite dribbling skills, in order to beat defenses in tight confines and players appearing in front of you at full speed ; and I'm not talking about dribbling skills a la Ronaldinho or whatever, I'm talking about dribbling abilities good enough to put you on par with the finest dribblers that ever existed, like Canhoteiro, Matthews, Pele, Garrincha, Best, Jairzinho, Cruyff, Maradona, etc. I found it amusing all the hype about C.Ronaldo's step-over, when in comparison with Ronaldo's original step-over from 1996-1998, who was performed at full speed (see his goal against Lazio in the UEFA cup 1998, the way the sends the keeper to pick daysies with a step-over for evidence) is nothing but schoolplay ;

- great speed in order to outrun defenders closing down of you ;

- great strength in order to resist charges, so that defenders could not push you off balance.

Injuries robbed Ronaldo of what could have been his prime, because this is a style which, in order to be performed succesfully, required 100% use of the player's physical qualities.

But There has been only 3 top-class players who combined all these 3 aspects and managed to put to use this type of game : Pele (1959-1966), Maradona (1979-1987) and Ronaldo (1996-1998) (with Eusebio close behind).

Besides, Ronaldo had other qualities added to that package.

Look at his finishings for instance. Ronaldo's finishing was equal to the greatest finishers in the game, Pele, Muller, Van Basten and Romario. It was simply perfect. There has been no striker in current football who can finish like prime Ronaldo ! NONE ! No Eto'o, no Henry, Shevchenko, Van Nistelrooy, Shearer, Batistuta, Inzaghi, Raul, etc. In fact, the precision of those finishings reminds me of Zico's passing : it's simply milimetric. What made it even more remarkable was the fact that this fellow was capable to hit the ball perfectly at full speed, without slowing down a bit ! Can you imagine the difficulty to apply such finishings while dashing towards the goal ?

One of Ronaldo's particularities in his Barca days was to spot openings in the opposite defenses and dash towards the goal (and thanks to his formidable acceleration, it was very hard - practically impossible, I would say - for defenders to catch up with him). So, I would point out Ronaldo's excelent positioning for the long balls and through balls of De la Pena, Giovanni or Figo. His ability to free himself of the marking is EXQUISITE. Ronaldo had an excellent ability to spot and exploit the gaps in the opposite defenses, dashing towards the goal. Maradona or Zico, for instance, had this ability too, but they used it rather to create chances for their teammates rather than score themselves, hence their magnificent through balls, which represent the supreme mastery of his skill which has ever been seen on a football pitch.

There is also Ronaldo's ability to carry a ball from midfield towards the box at full speed which was the best in history and equal to Eusebio's. The difference between them was that Ronaldo usually prefered clinical finishings from 10-18 yards, while Eusebio will send you a cannon from around 16-30 yards, because he was a superior long range shooter.

The point is that Ronaldo had all-time great (and I'm refering to the highest class of all-timers, like Pele and company) written all over him. Only Pele had a superior package.
It can be questioned whether he was better than all-time greats likeMaradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano or even Pele. IMO, he was not, because he was still a raw product and at the time it's perfectly true that he did not have a marquee performances on an all-time scale in order to propel him up there with Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, etc.
What makes me hesitate on the issue was that Ronaldo's performance in the 6 trophy clincher games he played in 1996-1998 (twice against Real and Juve in the league, against PSG in C2 in 1997 and Lazio in the C3 in 1998) was not something truly historical. His game against Lazio, the best of the bunch, was class, but IMO not all-time material. Had he overcome this obstacle (utterly destroy one elite opponent in a big game - championship derby against the main title contenders or big final at WC Level or European Cup), then what he did in 1996-1998 could be considered top 3 ever (or maybe even the best, depends on everyone's preference). But for him being best player in the world at the time, it was more than enough.
Comparing Zidane 2 Ronaldo isnt fair coz both play in a different position.
Ronaldo-VanBasten is more logic.
Its very silly 2 think that VanBasten better than Ronaldo is a sure thing when Ronaldo scored as twice as VanBasten.
4 me the judgment can go either way coz both r among the greatest.
Its more debatable than u think & ppl of this forum thinking them sayin MVB is better should b enough 2 say so is really silly.
MVB was never a player who can bring u victory on his own like Roanldo was & thatís what exactly made Maradona unique.
4get all the speed , dribbles & tricks , Ronaldoís finishing was equal if not better than MVB.
I remember MVB wasting chances much more than Ronaldo doin so..
On the other hand , statistics lean 2ward Ronaldo so yes, ppl who r saying R9 is better can back up there opinion with facts rather than personal opinion.
Also Ronaldo coming back from injury when all said he is over n done + scoring 8 goals bypassing the 6 goals barrier that was a mark 4 many previous WCs + becoming the all time scorer of WC is enough 2 consider him a legend.
Also MVB was injured after his peak while I think Ronaldo was injured prior 2 it.
Am not good in finding statistics , but can any1 post stats of em ?


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Old 30-03-2008, 13:27   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild
Am not good in finding statistics , but can any1 post stats of em ?
Apps (Gls)


Van Basten

1982-1987 Ajax 133 (128)
1987-1993 Milan 147 (90)

For Holland - 58 (24)


Ronaldo

1993-1994 Cruzerio 13 (12)
1994-1996 Psv 46 (42)
1996-1997 Barca 37 (34)
1997-2002 Shit 69 (49)
2002-2007 Real 127 (83)
2007 Milan 16 (9)

For Brazil - 97 (62)
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Old 30-03-2008, 13:27   #89
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Ronaldo
Brazil - 97 games, 62 goals


Van Basten
Holland - 58 games, 24 goals


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Old 30-03-2008, 13:48   #90
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That was quick , thx guys.
But which 1 is true ? LOL


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Old 30-03-2008, 14:05   #91
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Forza Milan...

Last edited by zZ[-_-]Zz; 22-06-2008 at 16:32.
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Old 30-03-2008, 14:25   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronaldo9
[edited]
[edited]

Well, people have brought in the names of Maradona and other midfielders ... so why not the best player of Ronaldo's generation - Zidane? So yeah ... he got red carded and couldn't play a game in '98, but he still led his team to the World Cup and Ronaldo didn't. In fact its surprising how some brush aside the valid point I brought up (as hatred) stating that Germany in '02 were in fact without Ballack. And in Brazil's only other somewhat difficult match, it was Rivaldo and Ronaldinho who saved Brazil's ass against the English. Not to mention other top contenders being harshly eliminated as the co-hosts surprisingly progressed, raising a few eyebrows. In this case, there's no question that Fatso led Brazil to the WC, but in the other, Zidane did nothing ... ridiculous!

Perhaps there must be a reason why the FIFA panel voted Zidane as WPOY 98 and not Fatso. Perhaps there is also a reason why, in 02, France looked a shadow of themselves without the magician ... so much, they had that generation of French stars written off only to be surprised in 06 where, if you noticed, Zizzou was more of a coach than the idiot Dominech who's job was to watch down the sidelines as Zizzou and Vieira made the calls ...

I'm surprised some think MVB couldn't win games on his own. I cannot disagree with this further even though I myself haven't watched him live. But from the footage I've seen, I can name quite a few ... The game against England I mentioned earlier where the teams were evenly balanced ... and MVB, playing his first game after a 6 month injury, came in and made the difference ... and this was a top English side with Barns, Linekar, Adams, etc. He OWNED (take note on usages Fatso9) Adams. The final against the Russians, numerous Milan games, really too many to mention ... he could do what Ronaldo did and some more. He wasn't as fast or your typical Brazilian wizard, but he was quick enough and technically sound ... and his more intelligent game + all-round attributes really set him apart.


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Last edited by Italian Tsar; 04-04-2008 at 17:19.
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Old 30-03-2008, 14:25   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zZ[-_-]Zz
statistics = facts? so you guys are comparin' goal-scorin' stats or footballin' ability?

do you have stats also for contribution to build up of goals... vital goals... goals/shot... positive contribution in the dressin' room (not the kind where you inspire teammates to turn up late for trainin' stinkin' of alcohol)... how about goals/minutes?

how about havin' stats to prove the quality of teammates both players had? can you judge if van Basten with the Brazilian team can do better than fat boy can do with the Dutch team?
No I dont , but do u ?
What argument u have that MVB did all that while R9 didnít ?
Itís a matter of opinion & number of goals + trophies just add a bonus 2 who have it.
R9 have it.


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Old 30-03-2008, 14:27   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
I myself haven't watched him live.
Thank u very much.
He wasnít a player who can win a game by himself.
Ronaldo was.


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Old 30-03-2008, 14:33   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild
Thank u very much.
He wasnít a player who can win a game by himself.
Ronaldo was.
Where you at the San Siro? If not, then how could watching full games now be any different?


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Old 30-03-2008, 14:36   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voce
And i am.... NEW? mayby? Next question i dont get, prob. some sort of insult.
NO it dont, but it doesnt either mean its right, just means IMO that it sucks. you are at least easily angered
It was some sort of an insult, but not directed to you. There was a sense of humor in the post, and I hope you're not offended, since I am not at all angered.


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Old 30-03-2008, 14:37   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
Well, people have brought in the names of Maradona and other midfielders ... so why not the best player of Ronaldo's generation - Zidane? So yeah ... he got red carded and couldn't play a game in '98, but he still led his team to the World Cup and Ronaldo didn't. In fact its surprising how some brush aside the valid point I brought up (as hatred) stating that Germany in '02 were in fact without Ballack. And in Brazil's only other somewhat difficult match, it was Rivaldo and Ronaldinho who saved Brazil's ass against the English. Not to mention other top contenders being harshly eliminated as the co-hosts surprisingly progressed, raising a few eyebrows. In this case, there's no question that Fatso led Brazil to the WC, but in the other, Zidane did nothing ... ridiculous!
And who saved France ass when Zidane was red carded , Zidane also ?
France reached the final without Zidane.
Thatís tell u a bit how France was all Zidane

Zidane , MVB , Ronaldo all r legends + almost equal.
I donít have any problem in arguing about who is better coz its debatable.
But 4 u 2 act like itís a done deal that Ronaldo is inferior is a bit silly specially when u havenít seen MVB play.
Stay humble @ least.


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Old 30-03-2008, 14:40   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtherchot
Where you at the San Siro? If not, then how could watching full games now be any different?
U downloaded 200+ FULL games for MVB coz thats how much I watched MVB.
If u did then I will bow 2 ur effort + apologize.


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Old 30-03-2008, 14:42   #99
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Right then ... I haven't watched him live. All due respect, but ... how does watching a game on TV live differ from a taped one watched later? Apart from the excitement, the game's still the same ... right?


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Old 30-03-2008, 14:47   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild
U downloaded 200+ FULL games for MVB coz thats how much I watched MVB.
If u did then I will bow 2 ur effort + apologize.
Nope I haven't. In fact, much less. But I have the added bonus of comparing the two players side-by-side ... since our opinions on the game may vary from time to time. Besides ... then not many of us will be able to comment or refer to Pele and Jeerzinho, like the glorifying post you quoted. I've a full game of both of them playing together and think Ronaldo's much more zinho than Pele ...


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