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-   -   English Premier League Thread II (http://forum.acmilan-online.com/showthread.php?t=12612)

neutral 21-07-2011 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdcantona (Post 1051333)
We will, just wait and see. And most people on here will be happy with who we get for another reason

Rofl , u and Sneijder. Is he your new Berbatov or something?

manutd fan 21-07-2011 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalac#16 (Post 1051382)


Young's crosses/corners are all over the place, you'll see 4/5 a game go way above everybodys head and finish up behind the goal, despite Villa having a pretty big squad his corners weren't anywhere near as effective as they should, he built that reputation in 07/08, and never really delivered like he should have after that.

Downing is a much better crosser, and maybe a better player than Young too.

Yeah, the first thing I noticed is that he over hits his crosses. I haven't seen him under hit one yet. Still if we can hit 1 good corner out of 5 I'll be happy, which is both funny and depressing at the same time.

neutral 21-07-2011 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by manutd fan (Post 1051408)
Yeah, the first thing I've noticed is that he over hits his crosses. I haven't seen him under hit one yet. Still if we can hit 1 good corner out of 5 I'll be happy, which is both funny and depressing at the same time.

The guy is part of a team with what 6 wingers? Im sure his quality is good enough for the amount he will play. Nani, Valencia and Giggs will still get in before him most of the time right?

manutd fan 21-07-2011 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by neutral (Post 1051411)
The guy is part of a team with what 6 wingers? Im sure his quality is good enough for the amount he will play. Nani, Valencia and Giggs will still get in before him most of the time right?

Giggs will move into the centre this season and we rotate more than any other team. We've gone years without naming the same 11 in back to back games.

Young has a good chance to establish himself because Valencia is injured and will probably miss the rest of pre season.

Senatore_M84 21-07-2011 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by neutral (Post 1051411)
The guy is part of a team with what 6 wingers? Im sure his quality is good enough for the amount he will play. Nani, Valencia and Giggs will still get in before him most of the time right?

4 winger midfield with overlapping wingers.

something like this...

rooney--chicharito
evra--young--giggs---------------------nani--valencia--rafael
vidic--ferdinand

necromancer 21-07-2011 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by neutral (Post 1051317)
Since when did i say they are doing anything wrong? I disagreed with you when you said they are good at managing money and are doing the only thing possible to break into the elite. Man City spend millions on worthless crap and have huge player salaries, thats poor money management. Also if spending was the only way to be successful then the league table would look very different. Also i read the article, so what they made a deal with the owners half brother who runs his company on a loss, how is this good?

Community developments, Funneling money towards the club in ways which the UEFA can say nothing about (academy developments et al), Sponsorship deals which cleverly leaves the money component unstructured, thereby ensuring a high part of it being attributed to parts of the deal which are protected from FFP.

Of course they've signed a lot of wrong players. Which EPL team hasn't? The point is that what they are doing currently with their financial structuring is exceedingly clever. I'm not talking about transfer deals.

And I said they are doing the only possible thing they could to break into the elite, "considering FFP et al". Which basically means they had to spend quick and then structure it as much as they could to escape the FFP rules. Which is exactly what they are doing. The best way to gain quick success.

And finally, if you have a club which tries to make money by making tickets too expensive for the average fan, and if you have another which tries to make money off the corporates while pricing the tickets fairly, there is no question as to which of the two clubs I admire. The latter, and that's Manchester City.

manutd fan 21-07-2011 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by necromancer (Post 1051453)
Community developments, Funneling money towards the club in ways which the UEFA can say nothing about (academy developments et al), Sponsorship deals which cleverly leaves the money component unstructured, thereby ensuring a high part of it being attributed to parts of the deal which are protected from FFP.

Of course they've signed a lot of wrong players. Which EPL team hasn't? The point is that what they are doing currently with their financial structuring is exceedingly clever. I'm not talking about transfer deals.

And I said they are doing the only possible thing they could to break into the elite, "considering FFP et al". Which basically means they had to spend quick and then structure it as much as they could to escape the FFP rules. Which is exactly what they are doing. The best way to gain quick success.

And finally, if you have a club which tries to make money by making tickets too expensive for the average fan, and if you have another which tries to make money off the corporates while pricing the tickets fairly, there is no question as to which of the two clubs I admire. The latter, and that's Manchester City.

City do a lot for the local community - more than United do.

Still, often £10 for a ticket yet they still can't sell out. Manchester is blue....

neutral 21-07-2011 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senatore_M84 (Post 1051419)
4 winger midfield with overlapping wingers.

something like this...

rooney--chicharito
evra--young--giggs---------------------nani--valencia--rafael
vidic--ferdinand

Haha nice, yes and also dont forget Rooney will sometimes drop back into the left wing spot, to give them that extra wing.

Quote:

Community developments, Funneling money towards the club in ways which the UEFA can say nothing about (academy developments et al), Sponsorship deals which cleverly leaves the money component unstructured, thereby ensuring a high part of it being attributed to parts of the deal which are protected from FFP.
Nothing special about this, anyone with half an accounting degree can figure this one out and how to go about ways of getting around FFP.


Quote:

Of course they've signed a lot of wrong players. Which EPL team hasn't? The point is that what they are doing currently with their financial structuring is exceedingly clever. I'm not talking about transfer deals.
Again look at my first point, plus with the transfers yes other teams have signed the wrong players but not to the same extreme as City. I can start listing all the players and the amounts and im sure then you will understand better?

Quote:

And I said they are doing the only possible thing they could to break into the elite, "considering FFP et al". Which basically means they had to spend quick and then structure it as much as they could to escape the FFP rules. Which is exactly what they are doing. The best way to gain quick success
Again i state they are not doing the only thing possible to break into the top teams. If this was the case then teams like Everton or Tottenham wouldnt have made the top 4 ever. If you get a good manager combined with smart braining in the transfer market + good youth system you can also become a top team. I do agree with your last line, spending lots will help quicken the success but it doesnt guarantee anything and its certainly not the only way.

Kalac#16 21-07-2011 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by neutral (Post 1051469)


Again i state they are not doing the only thing possible to break into the top teams. If this was the case then teams like Everton or Tottenham wouldnt have made the top 4 ever. If you get a good manager combined with smart braining in the transfer market + good youth system you can also become a top team. I do agree with your last line, spending lots will help quicken the success but it doesnt guarantee anything and its certainly not the only way.

Tottenham? Seriously? They have spent ridiculous almost every year, they didn't just get that squad together by chance and taking chances on unknown players. They've always been big spenders. As for Everton, different times, they got in when a pretty poor Liverpool team were also in the CL final. Everton's team was average, hard working but limited and took advantage of a really quite poor PL season.

neutral 21-07-2011 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalac#16 (Post 1051493)
Tottenham? Seriously? They have spent ridiculous almost every year, they didn't just get that squad together by chance and taking chances on unknown players. They've always been big spenders. As for Everton, different times, they got in when a pretty poor Liverpool team were also in the CL final. Everton's team was average, hard working but limited and took advantage of a really quite poor PL season.

Fair enough with Tottenham even though they have made some very good bargain buys. I think you are missing my point though, Everton still made it into the top 4 regardless of what the other teams did and have since then been near the top. No matter what the actual skill level of Everton is/was they still made it into the top four, thus disproving the theory that the only way to get there is by spending big.



Lets take this one step further

http://gyazo.com/930ce7e5d632f32781dfd7176c45954f.png

This shows that Chelsea and Man City have nett spent the most money by miles. Chelsea have a reasonable amount to show for with regards to the amount they have spent. Man City, have only a third place and an FA cup. Liverpool in third are similar to Chelsea, they have won the Champions League but are yet to win the premier league.

Now your two most successful and consistent teams, Arsenal and Man United. Man United are ranked 5th and Arsenal are 12th. I can only see this as proof that money doesnt guarantee anything.

Kalac#16 21-07-2011 23:05

So do you seriously think that a club like say, Bolton could get into the current top 4? Criticising how Man City did it is fine, but it's the only way possible now, doing what Everton did isn't going to happen anytime soon again.


I don't know how you can think otherwise, yes Arsenal spent really low, but that's because of Wenger, not every team has a Wenger. As for Utd, well they've spent 5th highest and got very lucky with Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Butt and the Neville's filling half there first 11. They've still spent huge, 30million for Ferdinand, stupid prices for Anderson and Nani, 30 for Rooney and Berbatov.

And then the insane sell on price of Ronaldo takes a huge chunk out of that, it's still almost 500 million spent.

Senatore_M84 21-07-2011 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalac#16 (Post 1051548)
So do you seriously think that a club like say, Bolton could get into the current top 4? Criticising how Man City did it is fine, but it's the only way possible now, doing what Everton did isn't going to happen anytime soon again.


I don't know how you can think otherwise, yes Arsenal spent really low, but that's because of Wenger, not every team has a Wenger. As for Utd, well they've spent 5th highest and got very lucky with Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Butt and the Neville's filling half there first 11. They've still spent huge, 30million for Ferdinand, stupid prices for Anderson and Nani, 30 for Rooney and Berbatov.

And then the insane sell on price of Ronaldo takes a huge chunk out of that, it's still almost 500 million spent.

it's worth noting, arsenal because of their name are able to poach top TALENTS blackburn, bolton, city (pre-money) could never. Those kids who want to move @ 16 would move to man utd, barcelona, etc. Wenger deserves credit for developing them, but he's still getting talented teens midtable epl clubs have no shot at money or not

So saying they don't spend big is kind of shortsided

manutd fan 22-07-2011 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalac#16 (Post 1051548)
So do you seriously think that a club like say, Bolton could get into the current top 4? Criticising how Man City did it is fine, but it's the only way possible now, doing what Everton did isn't going to happen anytime soon again.


I don't know how you can think otherwise, yes Arsenal spent really low, but that's because of Wenger, not every team has a Wenger. As for Utd, well they've spent 5th highest and got very lucky with Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Butt and the Neville's filling half there first 11. They've still spent huge, 30million for Ferdinand, stupid prices for Anderson and Nani, 30 for Rooney and Berbatov.

And then the insane sell on price of Ronaldo takes a huge chunk out of that, it's still almost 500 million spent.

To be fair we've also sold a lot. In the Summer where we spent 50M + on Anderson/Nani/Hargreaves/Tevez we sold:


Smith: 7M
Heinze: 7.5M
Richardson: 6M
Rossi: 7M
Shawcross: 2M
Jones: 1M
Bardsley 2M
Howard: 3M

35M

The Summer where we spent 30M on Berbatov we sold:

Pique: 6M
Eagles: 1.25M
Silvestre: 750k
Saha: around 3M

We obviously have huge revenus each year and our wage bill never goes over 50% of our spenditure, unlike Chelsea and City who spend stupid amounts.

Kalac#16 22-07-2011 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senatore_M84 (Post 1051553)
it's worth noting, arsenal because of their name are able to poach top TALENTS blackburn, bolton, city (pre-money) could never. Those kids who want to move @ 16 would move to man utd, barcelona, etc. Wenger deserves credit for developing them, but he's still getting talented teens midtable epl clubs have no shot at money or not

Yeah that's another thing, success breeds success. Teams like Bolton and Blackburn will always lose out, and especially now (look at Villa) as soon as a team starts building something their team just gets bought. Right now the league is far too competitive for a smaller club to stand a chance.

hdcantona 22-07-2011 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by neutral (Post 1051404)
Rofl , u and Sneijder. Is he your new Berbatov or something?

No, but I have a strrong feeling deal will go through (might get a wesley shirt if he signs, everyone on here should be happy for weakening merda too)

Senatore_M84 22-07-2011 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalac#16 (Post 1051607)
Yeah that's another thing, success breeds success. Teams like Bolton and Blackburn will always lose out, and especially now (look at Villa) as soon as a team starts building something their team just gets bought. Right now the league is far too competitive for a smaller club to stand a chance.

meh. What you need is an intelligent innovative scouting and managerial staff to unearth talents and develop them from nontypical places.

Yes villa going to brazil or championship to find their best talents is a fail, but the world is global, there are players everywehre

TheWire 22-07-2011 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalac#16 (Post 1051607)
Yeah that's another thing, success breeds success. Teams like Bolton and Blackburn will always lose out, and especially now (look at Villa) as soon as a team starts building something their team just gets bought. Right now the league is far too competitive for a smaller club to stand a chance.

Another obstacle mid size teams suffer from is the limited wage structure. One thing to bring in players, but keeping them is the problem.

Being a Spurs fan i felt we performed admirably in the CL. Even the most deluded Spurs fans would have to accept that a sustained challenge is nigh on impossible. I think Udinese are in a similar situation as us. They did fantastic last year, i just can't see them finishing above Juve and Roma

Over the last 4-5 seasons the PL has essentially become a glorified two team competition. With the emergence of City the status quo is officially over and yet people feel the need to criticize. I heard the Sheik is buliding a massive shopping complex and a casino in Manchester? I would imagine this is great news for the local economy

Kalac#16 22-07-2011 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWire (Post 1051694)
Another obstacle mid size teams suffer from is the limited wage structure. One thing to bring in players, but keeping them is the problem.

Being a Spurs fan i felt we performed admirably in the CL. Even the most deluded Spurs fans would have to accept that a sustained challenge is nigh on impossible. I think Udinese are in a similar situation as us. They did fantastic last year, i just can't see them finishing above Juve and Roma

Over the last 4-5 seasons the PL has essentially become a glorified two team competition. With the emergence of City the status quo is officially over and yet people feel the need to criticize. I heard the Sheik is buliding a massive shopping complex and a casino in Manchester? I would imagine this is great news for the local economy

You're much bigger than Udinese, probably closer to be compared to Fiorentina. Still, you're right, despite finishing 4th you'll probably finish 6th next year and then Modric/Bale will leave, unless you perform a miracle in the league.

Senatore_M84 22-07-2011 04:19

Udinese have 5th lowest wage bill in serie A and only have 1 player on 1 million euros a year. They are legitimately smaller than most championship clubs. But in my opinion they are EXACTLY what epl clubs should do. However in my opinion the english clubs generally have no vision or ability to think outside the box. EPL clubs earn a fortune, even the smarter ones, but they don't invest properly.

Honestly, i can look at major league baseball in usa, which has a complete capitalist system, and you have teams like yankees and red box with payrolls at $200 million, yet they don't win every year, and teams like my oakland a's can compete with payroll at 40-50 million. Teams like Tampa bay who have 50-70 mil pay roll beat them at times. Because of superior scouting and thinking outside the box. Finding players different ways etc. (Really, everyone should read the book moneyball, it's the ultimate business book "the air of winning an unfair game")

If I ran an epl club, first thing I'd do is hire up and coming scouts/agents, guys like damien comolli is, but 3-4 years ago (before name is built), I'd invest HEAVILY in development, hire a coach who can develop players. I'd invest heavily in all assets of making players coming in adjust; translators, etc. This sort of investment is REALLY inexpensive when you consider cost of 1 domestic player is 10 milliuon pounds.

I'd scout DIFFERENT places. Yes you can go to brazil, france, spain, england and find next wonderkid, and if he's good, you won't get him cause he's going to a top club, so you're set with there second rate players. But random south american countries, eastern european, african, you can find VERY good players for fees consistently under 5 million euros. You can offer them lower wages because they are typically making less than 100k a year. And you can sell off the ones who are big time and fund more transfers or keep them.

Seriously udinese has 7 players who could play for ANY side in the world. Di Natale, Sanchez, Inler, Asamoah, Zapata, Isla, Armero could walk into all top 4 sides. Maybe some would be just squad status, players like Inler, Isla, Sanchez would be more. Go look at what udinese paid for them. Sanchez- 3 million dollars from colo colo after he showed real promise in copa lbertadores. He might be most expensive behind Inler. Fuck look at palermo who took two very quality players from slovenian league (both of whom chelsea want) for a grant total of 2 million euros, possible les?? It's only because they are connected with right agents. Something the right club managers and money can get. The stuff EPL clubs COULD do if they hired right people and built right way.

Tell me what's a better model for a mid table/lower table side? That or spending 25 million pounds on 2 random epl playerS?

Fiero 22-07-2011 05:23

Sir Alex is classy as usual. Apparently some Bulgarian fans have been waiting in the rain for 7 days to wave at the team bus, but Fergie had another plans. He invited them over for autographs and a quick chit-chat:



The dude holding the camera is kind of funny. But Fabio and Rafael are awesome. :D


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