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Old 30-04-2021, 10:59   #101
Nestafan
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Originally Posted by Goodfella View Post
True, our CBs have been handed a tough task due to our approach. The rest of the team and Pioli have failed to protect them lately, which is why I have barely even mentioned Tomori's name in the past weeks while discussing the team's defensive issues in the commode and match-threads.
But it's also true that he has been poor individually lately.
He's been directly at fault for a lot of those "shitty goals" we've been conceding.

Our dangerously high line and high press is the reason why he became a starter in the first place. We needed a fast and aggressive CB like him for the breaks. And he has succeeded in that part of his mission because we've stopped conceding goals like the ones Inter did on us.
Instead we're now conceding "shitty goals" during defensive phases that are more about organization and anticipation than recovery speed and aggression.
Kjaer-Tomori haven't developed a partnership as good as Kjaer-Gabbia or Kjaer-Romagnoli in 2020.
In all honesty, Gabbia-Kjaer has been the strongest centre back pair all season. We were leaking very little before Gabbia's unfortunate injury.

As I said in the match thread, not writing Tomori off, but its three games in a row where he has been directly responsible for goals we conceded.


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Old 04-05-2021, 08:27   #102
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In all honesty, Gabbia-Kjaer has been the strongest centre back pair all season. We were leaking very little before Gabbia's unfortunate injury.

As I said in the match thread, not writing Tomori off, but its three games in a row where he has been directly responsible for goals we conceded.


Gabbia is written off by modern day fanboys because he doesn't make ESPN highlight last gasp challenges (likely b/c he's not out of position enough to have to...)



Also in renspose t other posts here, so funny that now everybody is seeing that maybe it's not all on the individual defenders and rather with how Pioli sets up (high line). Hate to say told you so, but definitely told ppl so. This high line high press defense leaves the CB's isolated all the time especially when Theo and/or Kessie goes forward too much, the LCB in particular gets exposed and we pay for it. Once we weren't flying high Pioli should have seen this and changed formation or defending/team shape to provide more defensive support.


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Last edited by Savo; 04-05-2021 at 08:31.
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Old 04-05-2021, 15:09   #103
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Based on what he's shown, no way does the guy deserve to be a starting CB. Granted, his pace is an amazing quality but time and time again he is making unforced errors and proving his reading of the game to be atrocious. In a back 3 however, I think he could truly shine. Just clean up anything that gets Kjaer or Roma into trouble.


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Old 04-05-2021, 16:59   #104
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Based on what he's shown, no way does the guy deserve to be a starting CB. Granted, his pace is an amazing quality but time and time again he is making unforced errors and proving his reading of the game to be atrocious. In a back 3 however, I think he could truly shine. Just clean up anything that gets Kjaer or Roma into trouble.
Roma is as fast as a turtle and Kjaer, despite great decision making usually, can also be at fault. I rather have a fast CB who doesn't yet read the game 100% and can make up for it with fast interceptions, than the most brilliant mind in football but can't cover his mark properly.

Maldini himself said that he looks for athleticism and innate abilities when scouting a defender, since tactics and awareness can be taught.

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A defender is easy enough for me to read, but while before we used to ask for a player could fit well in the department, now I would go and get a player who is strong in one-on-one, then we can teach him how to fit in the back four. The hard thing to teach is strength in one-on-one situations and concentration.

Last edited by sheva; 04-05-2021 at 17:02.
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Old 04-05-2021, 19:10   #105
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Based on what he's shown, no way does the guy deserve to be a starting CB. Granted, his pace is an amazing quality but time and time again he is making unforced errors and proving his reading of the game to be atrocious. In a back 3 however, I think he could truly shine. Just clean up anything that gets Kjaer or Roma into trouble.
He would be much better in a back 3 with Kjaer and Roma
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Old 05-05-2021, 06:56   #106
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He would be much better in a back 3 with Kjaer and Roma
If a back 3 isn't versatile, cohesive and athletic then it's crippling you.

What you have there is at least one injury-prone player, which will force a lot of rotation.
An Italian, a Dane and an Englishman who is new to Serie A and yet to learn the language.
Two players that are almost completely devoid of athleticism.
And not much versatility or goalscoring ability in that trio.

For comparison, Juve had a deep-lying playmaker in Bonucci, a fullback and CB in Chiellini and an athletic player in Barzagli.
Three Italians, and NT mates, that were pretty much injury-free in Conte's first season, which gave them thousands of playing minutes to perfect their partnership.
Those three and Caceres scored more non-PK goals than all our current midfielders combined.

Conte didn't hit the same jackpot at Inter, but he seems to have found a reliable trio at last, in Skriniar-deVrij-Bastoni who have also stayed almost completely injury-free this season.

Gasperini demands even more versatility and athleticism from his CBs. That's why they cancelled Kjaer's loan after a few months.


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Old 05-05-2021, 09:50   #107
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Originally Posted by Goodfella View Post
If a back 3 isn't versatile, cohesive and athletic then it's crippling you.

What you have there is at least one injury-prone player, which will force a lot of rotation.
An Italian, a Dane and an Englishman who is new to Serie A and yet to learn the language.
Two players that are almost completely devoid of athleticism.
And not much versatility or goalscoring ability in that trio.

For comparison, Juve had a deep-lying playmaker in Bonucci, a fullback and CB in Chiellini and an athletic player in Barzagli.
Three Italians, and NT mates, that were pretty much injury-free in Conte's first season, which gave them thousands of playing minutes to perfect their partnership.
Those three and Caceres scored more non-PK goals than all our current midfielders combined.

Conte didn't hit the same jackpot at Inter, but he seems to have found a reliable trio at last, in Skriniar-deVrij-Bastoni who have also stayed almost completely injury-free this season.

Gasperini demands even more versatility and athleticism from his CBs. That's why they cancelled Kjaer's loan after a few months.

Your logic doesn't make sense. So the fact Tomori is English doesn't stop him in a back 4 but in a back 3 it's a problem?
And surely in a back 3, we can take reduce the impact of the others weaknesses. Kjaer's lack of pace would be less exposed. Tomori's poor reading of the game would be less visible.

And when it comes to goalscoring - it's a bonus if a CB is getting a good return on goals. And to be honest, without looking at the stats I think Romagnoli has an okay record and Kjaer is quite a threat and set pieces.


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Old 05-05-2021, 09:53   #108
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Roma is as fast as a turtle and Kjaer, despite great decision making usually, can also be at fault. I rather have a fast CB who doesn't yet read the game 100% and can make up for it with fast interceptions, than the most brilliant mind in football but can't cover his mark properly.

Maldini himself said that he looks for athleticism and innate abilities when scouting a defender, since tactics and awareness can be taught.
You ignore my point. Would you rather a guy that makes few mistakes or a guy who makes some amazing recoveries, but also has a mistake in him each game that leads to a goal. A goal that is totally avoidable. The "mistakes" you say Kjaer and Romagnoli make are ones a lot of defenders are prone to. The ones I'm seeing from Tomori are ones I wouldn't make. It's shocking how slow his brain is at times. He can see the ball coming in - he stops and just stretches. Go to the ball!


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Old 05-05-2021, 12:16   #109
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Your logic doesn't make sense. So the fact Tomori is English doesn't stop him in a back 4 but in a back 3 it's a problem?
And surely in a back 3, we can take reduce the impact of the others weaknesses. Kjaer's lack of pace would be less exposed. Tomori's poor reading of the game would be less visible.

And when it comes to goalscoring - it's a bonus if a CB is getting a good return on goals. And to be honest, without looking at the stats I think Romagnoli has an okay record and Kjaer is quite a threat and set pieces.
The thing about a back 3 system is that you're not supposed to get the impression that there's one too many CBs on the pitch, which can easily happen as Allegri's and Montella's failed attempts at Milan showed, or when Conte/Inter were starting Godin and at times even Skriniar.
Top teams, that deploy a back 3 properly, avoid it by picking versatile, dependable, compatible defenders that allow a strong partnership to be built.

Tomori being English doesn't stop him in any formation, that would be your illogical conclusion.
Communication and good understanding between the defenders is important regardless of system. But, going by my observations, teams that deploy back 3s(more like back 5) tend to have a harder time dealing with absentees and rotations at the back than teams that use regular back 4s. It makes sense when you think about. Not only is it an unusual defensive system for most CBs - more individuals also means more influence in the team. If the great balance and understanding between the back 5 is missing then you don't have the same team at all.
If there isn't a balance and understanding to begin with, then you're going to get Montella's Milan's 3-4-3.


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Old 05-05-2021, 18:43   #110
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Let me blow this whole discussion up and just give a hot take..


HOT TAKE:
Modern defenders all suck and it's not that important to have great defenders these days. A few rise above the rest but even the tops of modern defenders don't have the complete packages the defenders of recent past did, plus with how sissified the current players and refs are they call everything so you can't even be physical or try to play proper defense or you risk getting a card... So, in the end, who cares?? as long as they're decent enough we'll be fine (and this is coming from me who loves defense and is incredibly defensive minded, and digs the occasional catenaccio). IMO, present day focus on controlling the mid and we'll be fine.


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My favorite goal (the 2nd one) - Kaka
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Last edited by Savo; 05-05-2021 at 18:50.
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Old 05-05-2021, 18:58   #111
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Let me blow this whole discussion up and just give a hot take..


HOT TAKE:
Modern defenders all suck and it's not that important to have great defenders these days. A few rise above the rest but even the tops of modern defenders don't have the complete packages the defenders of recent past did, plus with how sissified the current players and refs are they call everything so you can't even be physical or try to play proper defense or you risk getting a card... So, in the end, who cares?? as long as they're decent enough we'll be fine (and this is coming from me who loves defense and is incredibly defensive minded, and digs the occasional catenaccio). IMO, present day focus on controlling the mid and we'll be fine.
This is simply not true. Have you seen what happened to Liverpool when they lost their starting CB?s? It has influenced every aspect of their team. If you have reliable players at the back the attackers can be allowed to invest less in the defensive phases and focus on attacking. Man City are a much more complete team ever since they signed Ruben Dias. I agree that world class CB?s are few and far between but they are as relevant now as ever.
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Old 05-05-2021, 19:30   #112
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This is simply not true. Have you seen what happened to Liverpool when they lost their starting CB?s? It has influenced every aspect of their team. If you have reliable players at the back the attackers can be allowed to invest less in the defensive phases and focus on attacking. Man City are a much more complete team ever since they signed Ruben Dias. I agree that world class CB?s are few and far between but they are as relevant now as ever.
You agree with me, you just don't know it yet.

Key word... reliable. They don't need to be top class because none are. But if you have a solid, consistent defender, or to use your word "reliable" that's enough which was pretty much my point. I'm not saying you can run awful players, if you thought that, then you misunderstand me, I just mean that true defending is dead so just get some solid players (which we already have) and then fix the rest of the team.

For example, I saw awful defenses in these last several rounds of the champion's league yet these are the best teams in the world.... kind of says something doesn't it...


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My favorite goal (the 2nd one) - Kaka
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiMVT...eature=related

Maldini... true legend... the best
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Last edited by Savo; 05-05-2021 at 19:39.
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Old 06-05-2021, 07:50   #113
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You agree with me, you just don't know it yet.

Key word... reliable. They don't need to be top class because none are. But if you have a solid, consistent defender, or to use your word "reliable" that's enough which was pretty much my point. I'm not saying you can run awful players, if you thought that, then you misunderstand me, I just mean that true defending is dead so just get some solid players (which we already have) and then fix the rest of the team.

For example, I saw awful defenses in these last several rounds of the champion's league yet these are the best teams in the world.... kind of says something doesn't it...
I don?t agree with you. When I say reliable I mean as in every aspect of the game. I don?t want defenders who are good one on one but fall on their asses every time they have to deal with a lofted cross.

There most certainly are top class defenders they?re just not Italian. Virgil Van Dijk elevated his Liverpool side from being a top 4 contender in England to being the best team in the world he excels in everything you?d demand from a defender.

I know Milan can?t buy a talent like VVD as they are expensive and a rarity but if Milan are to splash 28m on a defender I?d prefer it to be someone more well-rounded than Tomori.
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Old 08-05-2021, 04:37   #114
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You agree with me, you just don't know it yet.

This is pure Jedi stuff... Respects!!!


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Old 11-05-2021, 08:00   #115
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Lets see how he recovers from this traumatic night.
Great response. He hasn't been flawless defensively, but he has bounced back, rather than sinking further after a few setbacks. I love how eager he is to score on set-pieces. He has come close a few times. The way he celebrated an obvious offside goal a few weeks ago stood out for me. It was a bit comical, but also said something about the amazing drive and determination he possesses.
28m is still a lot, but it won't look as large with CL revenue. Also, we're less likely to lose Donna and Hakan for free.


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Old 11-05-2021, 08:57   #116
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He was wonderful vs juventus. I could watch this clip all day... very nesta like in movement


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Old 12-05-2021, 04:23   #117
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/semprem...tus-report/amp


Chelsea loanee Tomori breaks Cristiano Ronaldo’s Serie A record with goal vs. Juventus – report

The 23-year-old reached a height of 263cm, surpassing the previous record of Cristiano Ronaldo (against Sampdoria last season), who hit 254cm. It certainly appears to have gone under the radar.


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Old 12-05-2021, 14:47   #118
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Old 12-05-2021, 16:05   #119
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Originally Posted by Goodfella View Post
He hasn't been flawless defensively, but he has bounced back, rather than sinking further after a few setbacks. I love how eager he is to score on set-pieces. He has come close a few times. The way he celebrated an obvious offside goal a few weeks ago stood out for me. It was a bit comical, but also said something about the amazing drive and determination he possesses.
28m is still a lot, but it won't look as large with CL revenue. Also, we're less likely to lose Donna and Hakan for free.
Agreed with your post and the bolded part is the most important. Tomori has been strong since joining but has been far from the stellar performer the initial fanboys thought he was. He is partially responsible for us going out to Man U (awful aerial marking on Diallo), he is fully responsible for the Sassuolo loss, and he got worked over and over v. Lazio with Corre (he struggles against the smart/tricky strikers so far) so he's already in a short time cost us many vital points. BUUUT, he has not caved in or cowered in fear, he keeps learning and keeps going forward and for that, I'm a fan. I think we should keep our current CB core and add Tomori to it. He pairs well with both Kjaer and Romagnoli and to be honest I'm sure him+Gabbia probably would make an excellent duo and may be the future Milan pairing as Gabbia hasn't played a single bad game for us yet so this is promising and I hope Fikayo continues on this path. Yes 28m is a lot for sure and I wish it was closer to 20 but if we get CL, it's probably worth it.


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Maldini... true legend... the best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8rqnwVBVQE
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Old 12-05-2021, 16:20   #120
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/semprem...tus-report/amp


Chelsea loanee Tomori breaks Cristiano Ronaldo?s Serie A record with goal vs. Juventus ? report

The 23-year-old reached a height of 263cm, surpassing the previous record of Cristiano Ronaldo (against Sampdoria last season), who hit 254cm. It certainly appears to have gone under the radar.
we're all about breaking records this year
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