Who was better

You are a fascinating bundle of contradictions, man.. On one hand, you deplore fans not "enjoying football for football's sake" anymore. Then you say you "care about business models". Pick one line.

I dont deplore talking about models in general if that is what you felt I implied... I was just remembering the days when the main talk was football rather than money...

Business models are a topic I like to talk about now since it does seem to dominant conversations.. especially in milan/serie A forums...

Only thing I deplore is udinese' type of model for football..

I agree with the Carrot. Football should be about winning. Anything else is just an inferior mentality.

i care about business for business sake

explains why you are unemployed

i wish

iscariot fundamentally doesn't understand what it means to be a fan.


Udinese chairman is doing more for his clubs supporters than lazio ever did. He's guaranteeing clubs health, putting out a relevant entertaining product.

Sure is it perfect? No. Will it ever win a scudetto? Well that'd be really hard. But he's guaranteeing a local product, which the community, who he cares about, has something to be proud of.

end of the day, if you're a local supporter, a true fan of a club, all you care about is your team being there, playing every week, with a shot to win, and providing you something to be proud of.

-

ask fans of dozens of clubs who overspent and went to 3rd division oblivion which they prefer

i just don't get how you can 'deplore' them. Udinese has it's place. It couldn't generate lazio revenue (much less milan revenue) if it wanted to. They are building a new stadium, they'll see slow organic growth this way, and that's what they want. To not lose their localness, and to remain true to it's roots.

but to 'deplore' them? They are ultimate little guy. Deploring them is basically like being the wealthy silver spoon kid who 'deplores' the working class guy.


to a degree we're all fairweather fans here. You support milan for whatever reason, as do i. There's no way any of you feel that same local tie to milan you would to a local club, same with me.

which is fine. I just see no reason to shit on a provincial club, who's doing well for itself and providing it's real supports civic pride. Maybe they'll grow it wont be overnight.


to put it simply it's not a concept i think you're even trying to understand. And yah, maybe it's not a club marketed at you. Doesn't mean it should be deplored.

by the way 'when it was about football and not money' takes you back 50 years.


you'd have seen no south americans in europe. Heck you'd see no spanish in england, much less x,y,z ethnicity.

money is 100% the reason it all grew, money is 100% the reason the ucl exists. Otherwise if you really want it not to be about money, it goes back to local club roots where people from milan and surrounding only played for ac milan etc. etc.


i'm sure that's EXACTLY what you support.

I think someone selectively read whatever the hell they wanted.

Start again from here

Iscariot said:

I disagree.

Udinese have had good enough players to be very competitive in the league if they had decided to hold on to their players. And it's not like holding on to their players would have put them in the red or anything. Instead they sold their best players even after entering UCL qualification rounds rather than building on what they had.

I am not oblivious to Udinese's capabilities but they have chosen to stay there rather than expanding on ambitions.

They are fundamentally a club looking for profit rather than trophies even when opportunities present themselves otherwise..

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Iscariot said:

I disagree.

Udinese have had good enough players to be very competitive in the league if they had decided to hold on to their players. And it's not like holding on to their players would have put them in the red or anything. Instead they sold their best players even after entering UCL qualification rounds rather than building on what they had.

I am not oblivious to Udinese's capabilities but they have chosen to stay there rather than expanding on ambitions.

They are fundamentally a club looking for profit rather than trophies even when opportunities present themselves otherwise..

As far as bayern goes... I obviously care about how they play their football... But I do care about their business model as well. Since it is a model that combines winning and revenues. They wont go into oblivion like Lazio did a decade back.... 5 years ago I probably didnt care... But blame Galliani's excuses that has made me look into all these things.

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i dont believe this is true. They are in the red w/o sales.


I'll search later for exact sources, but I feel pretty confident in saying this.


Eitherway they are not a club with strength of a bigger, with deficit and not have bank essentially foreclosing on them.

alright. Get me the exact sources.

Last time i checked their wage bill on gazetta it was peanuts.

I dont know how anyone can go so far in the red with that kind of wage bill that they would need to sell Sanchez, Inler and Zapata in one transfer window followed by assamoah and isla in the next.

Unless they are using it to fund their new stadium... but then again that is a recent development.

edit. double post.

Iscariot said:

edit. double post.

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this article is a little dated, but i believe it was one of first/more comprehensive ones touching on it-

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2011/05/udinese-selling-their-way-to-top.html



udinese play in by far smallest stadium of any 'top half' club, and tickets are cheaper. The region is less populated etc. etc. (if we r to compare to say milan, rome, naples etc.)

If you look here they are operating at a huge loss (considering finances of club) w/o player sales. I mean when you generate 40ish million but your total operating is in 60 mil range-




the point is, they are debateably a serie a club financially. Their are larger fanbased clubs in serie B. Yet their ownership has clearly grown the club, slow as it may be, and kept them relevant.

But these stats are before tv right sharing agreement right?

Iscariot said:

I dont deplore talking about models in general if that is what you felt I implied... I was just remembering the days when the main talk was football rather than money...

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Well various factors. 5 years ago, we were just starting to see the effects of the financial crisis. You were, I'm assuming, in your teen years, so you probably. I'm also assuming you weren't active in internet forum about Milan. There's video games directed to discuss the business side of football (as unrealistic as it might be), they have existed for a while but now any kid with internet at their home plays it. Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Tumblr, etc. hadn't exploded to the level they're today where if Galliani farts in the middle of a negotiation at Gianino's, Di Marzio will tweet it and say that means he wants a loan, with option to buy for 2 mil in 6 installments.

It has always existed. Only now we're even more exposed and a little more transparent (not as transparent as gazzetta's wage bill or all the rumours make it seem, but not as behind the doors as before), we're older so we also take more interest in this stuff (and some others take interest in wages and business thanks to FM).

Also clubs with the main intention to survive the year instead of going for trophies have always existed. I know this cause it happened in here, a small country, and my dad saw it when he was a child. There's clubs made for their small community, where yeah winning a trophy would be cool, but the main thing is to survive, and if it means selling your best player then so be it (at the end of the day big clubs in here also do that to survive), players come and go, the club will always be there.

You also have to realize for this type of teams, beating a big team in a game during the season, qualifying to Europe...is just as big a reward as it is to win the championship.

leaf said:

Football is ENTERTAINMENT. End of story.

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No one in here would be here if it was just entertainment. Berlu's Milan is one of the biggest brand selling business out there, not even that, if it wasn't a business, who knows where the fuck would Milan would be atm, probably be a Torino type of club.

leaf said:

Probably five years or so ago, fans used to want good players to play for our team...now everybody is talking about who deserves what wage, which is the better tax structure, contract elements (which are often fucking hilarious because the way 90% of this forum talks about reducing players' wages because they deem not to be worth the aforementioned clearly betrays their lack of knowledge of contract law) etc etc. Players have simply become stock/assets...and we wonder why so many of them are fucking mercenaries

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I agree that people in here have got no clue how a contract works. But players are no different from what you are to your company, or what I am from mine. It's a job, their an asset/stock to their company. And people in here have discussed deserving wages, and transfer fees since I've been around here. Yes it wasn't such a generalization like today, because there wasn't enough information (right or wrong) on wages, tax, etc. But it's always been a part of the discussion.

leaf said:

I fear the worst. Very pessimistic that the beautiful game has been eclipsed by the financial game. It's polluting everything....Gotze's Nike fiasco, shoe companies interfering with the team's policies, players preferring to dive, cheat and play dirty because they know how much $$ they stand to lose if they don't win.....yes it's been going on for nearly a century but not on this scale.

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I read about this 10 years ago in a book written 20 years ago. Fact of the matter is, players now have insurance, a good chunk of them actually behave like professionals because they know how important it is for their careers, shoe policies have interfered for quite a long time now, and they are main sponsors for teams (pays the salary of the players, the maintenance of the stadium or whatever,fact is, teams need money to survive and be elite).

Players have always dove, cheated, and played dirty (look at the chilean keeper in 1989-lol-, or the 1966 WC, the 1978 one, or the dirty fouls Pele got), only difference is, you know have youtube and 50 zoom cameras showing from 1000 angles the dives.

I know its now that its hitting "too close to home"...but if you're playing the moralist card that football didn't used to be a business and how come there's feeders clubs, and how its disgraceful this practice exist, you shouldn't be supporting a big italian team (or german team) at all.

Iscariot said:

But these stats are before tv right sharing agreement right?

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well there was revenue sharing then.

it's just that in 2012, they stopped sharing with serie B (it used to be evenly split between all 44 Serie A/B clubs) now it's seperate.

i dont believe the gains of revenue sharing via serie A tv deals has increased udinese's money that much. It only took out of pocket of milan/inter/juve.


of course we're only talking shot term, which is now, still in infancy. Assuming serie A CAN grow it's brand like EPL or Bundesliga did, we could see a substancial difference in revenue.

I just wouldn't anticipate it in the near future. Like a stadium, good long term idea, but it remains non relevant to todays business operation. just planning for future.

crazy4milan said:

Also clubs with the main intention to survive the year instead of going for trophies have always existed. I know this cause it happened in here, a small country, and my dad saw it when he was a child. There's clubs made for their small community, where yeah winning a trophy would be cool, but the main thing is to survive, and if it means selling your best player then so be it (at the end of the day big clubs in here also do that to survive), players come and go, the club will always be there.

You also have to realize for this type of teams, beating a big team in a game during the season, qualifying to Europe...is just as big a reward as it is to win the championship.

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I havent denied that but there are clubs who can take the leap forward to the next level. Udinese do end up making a lot of profit from player sales... but that is the whole point imo. They can break even through player sales and at least retain some of their better players to mount a serious UCL qualification (opportunities that they have been awarded) and earn a substantial revenue through that as well... or they could keep selling all their best players regardless.

The are invariably in the latter category and that represents a profit mind set rather than a competitive one no?

30 million profit through player sales... Ultimately they are making a tradeoff between ambition and profit.

Iscariot said:

I havent denied that but there are clubs who can take the leap forward to the next level. Udinese do end up making a lot of profit from player sales... but that is the whole point imo. They can break even through player sales and at least retain some of their better players to mount a serious UCL qualification (opportunities that they have been awarded) and earn a substantial revenue through that as well... or they could keep selling all their best players regardless.

The are invariably in the latter category and that represents a profit mind set rather than a competitive one no?

30 million profit through player sales... Ultimately they are making a tradeoff between ambition and profit.

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but they are losing about 20+ mil...

aso to say they are generating a huge profit, is false. They buy cheap, develop, sell.

and keep a little extra cause you always need operating capital.


I'm just saying they are pretty ambition when you consider how small a club it is. They are decades away from reaching fan support near chelsea or city pre-them being bought by wealthy men even

Senatore_M84 said:

but they are losing about 20+ mil...

aso to say they are generating a huge profit, is false. They buy cheap, develop, sell.

and keep a little extra cause you always need operating capital.


I'm just saying they are pretty ambition when you consider how small a club it is. They are decades away from reaching fan support near chelsea or city pre-them being bought by wealthy men even

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Even if assuming on average they lose 20 mil...

We are looking at revenues generated by Sanchez sale alone equaling 40 mil + Assamoah and Isla getting another 18 mil (for 50% of contract) + 12 million for inler + 7 or 8 on zapata (?) + Armero

So either way they have made massive profits over last 2 years... much more than their operation costs... and much more than what would be required for operation capital.

Iscariot said:

I havent denied that but there are clubs who can take the leap forward to the next level. Udinese do end up making a lot of profit from player sales... but that is the whole point imo. They can break even through player sales and at least retain some of their better players to mount a serious UCL qualification (opportunities that they have been awarded) and earn a substantial revenue through that as well... or they could keep selling all their best players regardless.

The are invariably in the latter category and that represents a profit mind set rather than a competitive one no?

30 million profit through player sales... Ultimately they are making a tradeoff between ambition and profit.

Click to expand...

They're making that tradeoff because there's ZERO guarantee that by being more ambitious they'll win anything or get anywhere, this aint Milan, or Juventus, not even Roma, Napoli, Fiorentina or Samp/Genoa, these teams can take that risk, Udinese takes that risk and there's bigger chances they'll end up in a bigger mess eventually. They're not in a geographical location advantage that a team like PSG, Chelsea, Monaco have, hell they don't even have the league advantages PSG and Monaco have-with Lyon out of the picture and a soso Marseille as the bigger opponent-.

how would udinese do in bundesliga?

relegation

#bundesboss

I dont see how they cant resort to selling of players after the strategy fails rather than before they even apply it.

We need to remember that something like qualifying for UCL would more than cover Udinese's margins. Players they had were more than capable of going through the qualifiers at least.

Iscariot said:

I dont see how they cant resort to selling of players after the strategy fails rather than before they even apply it.

We need to remember that something like qualifying for UCL would more than cover Udinese's margins. Players they had were more than capable of going through the qualifiers at least.

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their are realities. milan (as much as it doesnt seem) are backed by finivest, a holdings company with a lot of money.

udinese isn't. They are losing money, they are forced w/ sale or taking a bank loan... if they can get it.

iunno, in general read that article. They generally have a 2 step forward, 1 step back thing going on, which is allowing for slow growth. It's probably best path for em.

They have one of smallest stadiums in a small region. It's just reality. It's on par w/ england league 1 sides

Iscariot has a point about Udinese. The Pozzo family runs Udinese like a business, it's not their intention to reinvest all the money on the club to get the best chance possible for trophies... They want a sustainable model that runs a profit... And they also want that in Granada and Watford.

Still, I'm sure Udinese fans will take that model and their run since the mid-90's over any other in Italy. They did a lot for the club.


It's different from South American clubs, Porto/Benfica, or some Spanish clubs cause they're associations. They want to sell smartly to reinvest smartly.

necromancer said:

Excellent model if you ask me. The idea that being a 'selling club' is a negative indicator is rapidly becoming old-fashioned.

Selling players is a very good revenue stream for any club, whether big or small. Especially in an inflated market, one MUST sell if one has developed young players who are hyped and overpriced (which is another function of today's football - FM, excited teenagers, oil money, even U-17 players being hyped etc.).

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I think it's the only model possible left for them in rough times... Maybe the most supported clubs like Bilbao/Valencia/Atleti can explore association of the supporters or their stadiums somehow. The rest will need to develop and sell players.

Anyway, Spanish clubs have been quite succesful at it. Their canteras have a huge tradition, their brand of football is on trend, they seem very good at trainning skilled players.

crazy4milan said:

Well various factors. 5 years ago, we were just starting to see the effects of the financial crisis. You were, I'm assuming, in your teen years, so you probably. I'm also assuming you weren't active in internet forum about Milan. There's video games directed to discuss the business side of football (as unrealistic as it might be), they have existed for a while but now any kid with internet at their home plays it. Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Tumblr, etc. hadn't exploded to the level they're today where if Galliani farts in the middle of a negotiation at Gianino's, Di Marzio will tweet it and say that means he wants a loan, with option to buy for 2 mil in 6 installments.

It has always existed. Only now we're even more exposed and a little more transparent (not as transparent as gazzetta's wage bill or all the rumours make it seem, but not as behind the doors as before), we're older so we also take more interest in this stuff (and some others take interest in wages and business thanks to FM).

Also clubs with the main intention to survive the year instead of going for trophies have always existed. I know this cause it happened in here, a small country, and my dad saw it when he was a child. There's clubs made for their small community, where yeah winning a trophy would be cool, but the main thing is to survive, and if it means selling your best player then so be it (at the end of the day big clubs in here also do that to survive), players come and go, the club will always be there.

You also have to realize for this type of teams, beating a big team in a game during the season, qualifying to Europe...is just as big a reward as it is to win the championship.




No one in here would be here if it was just entertainment. Berlu's Milan is one of the biggest brand selling business out there, not even that, if it wasn't a business, who knows where the fuck would Milan would be atm, probably be a Torino type of club.


I agree that people in here have got no clue how a contract works. But players are no different from what you are to your company, or what I am from mine. It's a job, their an asset/stock to their company. And people in here have discussed deserving wages, and transfer fees since I've been around here. Yes it wasn't such a generalization like today, because there wasn't enough information (right or wrong) on wages, tax, etc. But it's always been a part of the discussion.



I read about this 10 years ago in a book written 20 years ago. Fact of the matter is, players now have insurance, a good chunk of them actually behave like professionals because they know how important it is for their careers, shoe policies have interfered for quite a long time now, and they are main sponsors for teams (pays the salary of the players, the maintenance of the stadium or whatever,fact is, teams need money to survive and be elite).

Players have always dove, cheated, and played dirty (look at the chilean keeper in 1989-lol-, or the 1966 WC, the 1978 one, or the dirty fouls Pele got), only difference is, you know have youtube and 50 zoom cameras showing from 1000 angles the dives.

I know its now that its hitting "too close to home"...but if you're playing the moralist card that football didn't used to be a business and how come there's feeders clubs, and how its disgraceful this practice exist, you shouldn't be supporting a big italian team (or german team) at all.

Click to expand...

you are 100% right. which is why I'm finding it harder to support this Berlusconi lead team. Corruption is staining everything.

Congo Powers said:

how would udinese do in bundesliga?

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Leverkusen?