Lionel Messi Thread

joy

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I never understood the merits of a "completeness" discussion
In football, all that matters is your contribution and your effectiveness. It's silly to put any significant weight on completeness is a holistic sense because as you move further away from goal, the skills become less relevant. Suppose some other guy is a better keeper than Messi....could we knock him for not "being complete" because of this?

The concept of completeness is both nebulous and overrated. Shevchenko was more "complete" than R9. He was better in the air for sure. However, Ron was simply more brilliant and was a more dangerous player

The point about Messi not being as complete as CR7 is moot....because though CR7 is faster, stronger, better fk taker, better distance shooter, better with both feet Messi's vision more than compensates for not being as good because he has that rare ability to create goals for others. He's just as effective as an old-fashioned #10 as he is as a #9 and is almost as good as a #7 winger/support striker. Then there is the dribbling. He's better than CR7 at it. So much that everybody knows what/where he's going (see Arjen Robben)....and nobody can stop it.


Since I am old, I will further elaborate on this point using the examples of Pele and Maradona.

Pele was more complete in the sense he could and did use both feet, was strong with header.

Some people say that Maradona used only one feet and was not that good with header, hence Pele was better. But to me, this reasoning does not seem good.
 

leaf

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it certainly doesn't apply to basketball either....

it's not pundit's as much as ex-players who want to discredit players. "He's not as complete as guy from my era" is a sublte way of saying i'm threatened by him and i don't want people forgetting my greatness.
Not really.....I'm not sure it's them feeling threatened as opposed to them knowing that their game was multifaceted. Take Boban's comments on Fellaini.....I very much doubt that Boban is threatened in any way by the tall dude.

The old school players (in all sports) appreciate players who are good with their fundamentals first and then they start considering the rest. These days, there is a tendency for overly specific players....players who can do one thing well. While these players might go on to have successful careers in our modern era....they would have gotten little or no respect back in the day. This is why you kinds have to sympathize with Madridsta's opinion (even if you disagree) that Messi basically does the same thing all the time.

Benzema tried to emulate Ronaldo by being a good shooter with both feet and to be honest, he is just like Ron in the fundamental aspects of his game. The PROBLEM is that once you're brilliant enough..... the fundamentals don't really matter anymore.


So yeah Maradonna was poor in the air and one-footed. R9 wasn't great in the air for most of his career either. Zidane was slow as fuck. Messi doesn't (can't) shoot from distance and is mainly one-footed. Pippo had 0 technique. According to all the older legends of the game....Pele didn't have these problems so they rate him higher in light of his similar accomplishments.


But, to agree with your argument Sheva had none of these problems and he's still (at least to me) on a lower tier of superstars than the aforementioned. To me, Sheva is on the lower tier with other super-stars who were more or less "complete" like Vieri, Nedved, Figo and Henry.

"brilliance" is all that matters. LeBron is more complete than MJ isn't he? ;)
 
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jammin

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These days, there is a tendency for overly specific players....players who can do one thing well.
Like who?
While these players might go on to have successful careers in our modern era....they would have gotten little or no respect back in the day.
Why?
The PROBLEM is that once you're brilliant enough..... the fundamentals don't really matter anymore.
Why?
So yeah Maradonna was poor in the air and one-footed. R9 wasn't great in the air for most of his career either. Zidane was slow as fuck. Messi doesn't (can't) shoot from distance and is mainly one-footed. Pippo had 0 technique.
Ok
"brilliance" is all that matters. LeBron is more complete than MJ isn't he? ;)
Why?
 

Senatore_M84

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Not really.....I'm not sure it's them feeling threatened as opposed to them knowing that their game was multifaceted. Take Boban's comments on Fellaini.....I very much doubt that Boban is threatened in any way by the tall dude.

The old school players (in all sports) appreciate players who are good with their fundamentals first and then they start considering the rest. These days, there is a tendency for overly specific players....players who can do one thing well. While these players might go on to have successful careers in our modern era....they would have gotten little or no respect back in the day. This is why you kinds have to sympathize with Madridsta's opinion (even if you disagree) that Messi basically does the same thing all the time.

Benzema tried to emulate Ronaldo by being a good shooter with both feet and to be honest, he is just like Ron in the fundamental aspects of his game. The PROBLEM is that once you're brilliant enough..... the fundamentals don't really matter anymore.


So yeah Maradonna was poor in the air and one-footed. R9 wasn't great in the air for most of his career either. Zidane was slow as fuck. Messi doesn't (can't) shoot from distance and is mainly one-footed. Pippo had 0 technique. According to all the older legends of the game....Pele didn't have these problems so they rate him higher in light of his similar accomplishments.


But, to agree with your argument Sheva had none of these problems and he's still (at least to me) on a lower tier of superstars than the aforementioned. To me, Sheva is on the lower tier with other super-stars who were more or less "complete" like Vieri, Nedved, Figo and Henry.

"brilliance" is all that matters. LeBron is more complete than MJ isn't he? ;)



Not sure he's more complete but that's a different discussion (better shooter for sure tho)


-

but more interesting part on x-players to mw is how they always slight current gen. ALWAYS. And it's always same. They don't see game evolution, they are just insecure
 

Sven

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Messi gets all the credit in Barcelona but I know who the real genius actually is





"Watch the game, and you won't see Busquets, but watch Busquets and you see the whole game", "Busquets is a coach playing football"

:proud:
 

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I think complete means what the term defines. If you can't defend for shit, you're not complete. Maldini was the best defender of all time, but the best footballer of all time? You have to know how to do everything in order for you to be labeled that, and I don't think anyone's really satisfied that. If you're too simple-minded to get what I'm saying, it's the principle that if you field a player anywhere on the pitch, they'd play to a level as good or better than anyone else. Messi at CB? :lol: Ronaldo as a RB? :lol: Objectively, there has been and is a best player of all time, but I don't think anyone's nailed that down. Subjectively? Sure, it could be a lot of players, but it's sad people only want to brow beat useless debates about strikers until they're blue in the face.
I dont think anyone meant complete as all over the pitch since obviously no player is that & no player will be.
If we are talking about a certain position & we say that player is complete am sure the meaning is obviously complete for that position.
Maldini was indeed a complete defender , Baresi was better as a CD but still not as complete as Maldini since the latter was able to play anywhere in defense including flanks.
When we say Messi or CR are complete mean they can play all over the attack , ofcourse they cant dominate as CMs or in defense or if you want as GKs.

And for sure am not the one who think there was A best player of all time , best players is more logical for me.
 

Redman10

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I don't think there was a best player of all time either. I think you have to break it down by positions. I also think there should be individual awards for other position like defedner, gk, etc.

Messi and Ronaldo are all-time great attackers. I don't think either was better than Ronaldo at his best though but both clearly surpass him at club level and probably should be rank higher than him in the all time list.
 
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"brilliance" is all that matters.

So, now #grace is irrelevant again?

--
but for real, if you're gonna be THIS subjective about it, why even discuss.
 

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I don't think there was a best player of all time either. I think you have to break it down by positions. I also think there should be individual awards for other

Messi and Ronaldo are all-time great attackers. I don't think either was better than Ronaldo at his best though but both clearly surpass him at club level and probably should be rank higher than him in the all time list.
Even if you break it down to positions it will be hard to decide if there is an all time best.
Its more logical to say a bunch were the best & not deciding which one is THE best.
 

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So messi broke all time Spain goals record by age 28?
 

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So messi broke all time Spain goals record by age 28?

age 27

10613072_1218738548166359_8160270160958964294_n.jpg


league goals is done now
 

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So messi broke all time Spain goals record by age 28?
27 :o
Ridiculous if you think about it.
Still to hit his prime LOL

If I was him I will continue this season & maybe one more with Barca , braking all the records available & change team/country.
Rejoining Pep @ Bayern or joining City to make their history or a similar challenge/adventure.
 
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Congo Powers

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Absolutely ridiculous

What is the goals/games ratio?
 

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Goals are passable if you think about it.
Whats ridiculous is his assists added by his goals.
 

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So, now #grace is irrelevant again?

--
but for real, if you're gonna be THIS subjective about it, why even discuss.

The "grace" quote isn't from me.
Brilliance = being able to get it done :mb:
 

Redman10

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27 :o
Ridiculous if you think about it.
Still to hit his prime LOL

If I was him I will continue this season & maybe one more with Barca , braking all the records available & change team/country.
Rejoining Pep @ Bayern or joining City to make their history or a similar challenge/adventure.

You always here players hit there prime around 26 but I don't think that the case for all footballers. Messi like Ronaldo (R9) hit his peak already at an earlier age and started showing decline last year even though he still had great numbers. I can't see surpassing his 08-12 level. He'll maintain a high level for a couple more season though.
 

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Definitely, he hit his peak..i mean.... :lol: let's be serius
 

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You always here players hit there prime around 26 but I don't think that the case for all footballers. Messi like Ronaldo (R9) hit his peak already at an earlier age and started showing decline last year even though he still had great numbers. I can't see surpassing his 08-12 level. He'll maintain a high level for a couple more season though.
I was joking about the prime thingy but I dont think he is starting to decline , he seems more unhappy/bored.
Thats why am saying he should move.
I predict him starting to play a bigger role with Argentina & lesser with Barca simply coz his challenge agenda has changed.
 

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Messi to Bayern Munich this summer. You heard it here first.

Also, the only thing Messi can do that the original Ronaldo Phenomeno couldn't is stay healthy.
 

jammin

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Messi gets all the credit in Barcelona but I know who the real genius actually is







:proud:
+1

Notice how Messi won his first Balon D'Or after the 08/09 season, when Busquets first debuted? :o
 

General

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[/B]

Not sure he's more complete but that's a different discussion (better shooter for sure tho)


-

but more interesting part on x-players to mw is how they always slight current gen. ALWAYS. And it's always same. They don't see game evolution, they are just insecure

Agreed about how x players love to glorify the past.. But the term 'complete' is definitely used in basketball and to me makes a little more sense to get away with. I mean in terms of the big indicators- offense/defense. Hard to translate that to this sport where you have more specialization.

It's a pointless phrase though- cant really debate that
 

General

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so would messi or Ronaldo make a shitty team better on their own?

Let's say... Chievo won the lottery and could only spend on one of those two..

Which one would help them win more matches.

Serious calcio
 

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Both at their best i have no doubt who is the better of the two.........Messi > Ronaldo.
 

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B6myp1qCQAAfRmS.jpg

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wtf is this shit?!
 
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