The Rumour Commode XXXIX: A Cardinal Sin

Do you think Leao will renew?


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Pigeon

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so they actually listed transfermarkt as a reliable source:lol: based on that, they could probably cook us for olzer. djalo, on the other hand, rather less. we paid 1mil for him, how is his value supposed to be at 175k 6 months later?
 

brk

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As I said

What they did wasnt illegal, just super dodgy.

The reason they are getting punished is because they were dumb enough to get themselves recorded.

Lets be honest, what they were doing was actually pretty smart. They found a loophole in the system and they exploited it. Just like plenty of other clubs (ourselves included) have done.

Its just that they werent smart enough. They were dumb enough to blatantly admit to doing so and did too many of those transfers within a short period of time - ergo why the spotlight was on them.

It didnt help that this only got resurrected again only because of the ACTUAL illegal shit they were doing, which is the other case next month.
Yeah, it is legal and clubs were already found not guilty before. It's a closed issue, which is why i'm sure that Napoli (or Milan) will not get dragged into this. Juve is a special case this time because of the wiretaps. Anyway, those 15points are just the tip of the iceberg for Juve. Looks likely they'll get banned for 3 years from Europe, and they might get relegated again because of the covid salaries. Fun times.
 

Ash

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so they actually listed transfermarkt as a reliable source based on that, they could probably cook us for olzer. djalo, on the other hand, rather less. we paid 1mil for him, how is his value supposed to be at 175k 6 months later?
Also, isnt transfermarkt a private entity?

Its not like its regulated or an official body.
 

Hugh Janus

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Most of you are missing the point thinking it's all a single case. It's not.

This Plusvalenza case has been around for years now, it was closed and reopened twice, I believe. Juve's criminal board was never really bothered much by this case. Sure they knew they're going to be fined at some point for all the shady transfers they did (probably never expected a 15 points fine though), but that was going to be it. After the recent outburst though, I fully expect more teams to be punished for this, as the case gained such traction recently.

The past fall however wiretaps and information came up suggesting that Juve, a public traded company shared false numbers to the PUBLIC which lead to manipulating every investor and the possible new investors. This is HUGE, it's not comparable how much bigger this is than the Plusvalenza case.

An hour after this information came out, their whole fucking board resigned. It had nothing to do with the Plusvalenza case. They know they fucked up and this is pretty serious. This case is scheduled for March and the fines are expected to be much harsher than just a simple points fine.
 

Ash

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Yeah, it is legal and clubs were already found not guilty before. It's a closed issue, which is why i'm sure that Napoli (or Milan) will not get dragged into this. Juve is a special case this time because of the wiretaps. Anyway, those 15points are just the tip of the iceberg for Juve. Looks likely they'll get banned for 3 years from Europe, and they might get relegated again because of the covid salaries. Fun times.
As far as I am aware, the other trial is not a sporting one but criminal.

Obviously it could result in a sporting trial but it isnt yet.

The case by UEFA is different though so definitely could see them banned for a couple of years.

The funny thing is that what Juve did is nowhere near close to the shit City and PSG got away with.
 

brk

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As far as I am aware, the other trial is not a sporting one but criminal.

Obviously it could result in a sporting trial but it isnt yet.

The case by UEFA is different though so definitely could see them banned for a couple of years.

The funny thing is that what Juve did is nowhere near close to the shit City and PSG got away with.
Doesn't help that Agnelli went to war against UEFA for no good reason and refused to back down.
 

Samaldinho

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Also, isnt transfermarkt a private entity?

Its not like its regulated or an official body.
It depends on the judge and rules of evidence in the jurisdiction regarding what is permissible or not.

If we assume that it would be permissible, the prosecution or the defense can offer all sorts of sources to make their case. It would be up to the judge or jury (whoever is the trier of fact) whether that evidence is persuasive enough to side with one side or the other.
 

Ash

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At the end of the day, if Juve werent doing actual illegal shit (like paying players under the table and missstating losses), authorities wouldn't have been wiretapping them.

But the fact that they were doing so, resulted in them getting caught admitting to dodgy plusvalenza deals also.

Gives a whole new meaning to "takibg a hammer to your foot" lol.
 

Ash

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It depends on the judge and rules of evidence in the jurisdiction regarding what is permissible or not.

If we assume that it would be permissible, the prosecution or the defense can offer all sorts of sources to make their case. It would be up to the judge or jury (whoever is the trier of fact) whether that evidence is persuasive enough to side with one side or the other.
But that just sets a dangerous precedent in my opinion.

If anything, it disadvantages Italian clubs even more now as every transfer they do now is going to be closely monitored whereas the rest of football can continue to do these same dodgy deals as per usual.
 

fray

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There's a vast difference between our Primavera sales and Juve & Inter's. Beyond the Transfermarkt valuations which Seire A have (somehow!) used as a yardstick, we're also talking about trading carousels between Juve and their satellite clubs for plusvalenza (Genoa/Atalanta) where they trade players back and forth at inflated prices. E.G. Favilli, Portanova and Muratore for a respective €12m, €10m and €8m fees. You don't need to have a dozens of Transfermarkt tabs open to smell the cooking from the book.
 

Ash

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There's a vast difference between our Primavera sales and Juve & Inter's. Beyond the Transfermarkt valuations which Seire A have (somehow!) used as a yardstick, we're also talking about trading carousels between Juve and their satellite clubs for plusvalenza (Genoa/Atalanta) where they trade players back and forth at inflated prices. E.G. Favilli, Portanova and Muratore for a respective €12m, €10m and €8m fees. You don't need to have a dozens of Transfermarkt tabs open to smell the cooking from the book.
Thats not the point tho is it.

We are talking about what the prosecution used as primary evidence for their argument.
 

Pingu

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i legit couldnt give less fucks whhat u think of ziyech
I already know most of u here are clueless and that 100% includes Pingu
Clearly you do or you'd stop replying to the topic.

And yes, I'm clueless. I wanted Ziyech - as you are advocating for - and saying he's an upgrade to our RW, but I'm clueless. What are you then? My point is that you say he has bad relations with his clubs/managers and we want to avoid that. And, you say he has been one of Chelsea's best meanwhile they want to offload him. Something doesn't add up.

Remove the shell from the peanut and maybe your brain expands to comprehend this.
 

Samaldinho

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But that just sets a dangerous precedent in my opinion.

If anything, it disadvantages Italian clubs even more now as every transfer they do now is going to be closely monitored whereas the rest of football can continue to do these same dodgy deals as per usual.
The prosecution can cite RnB to prosecute crimes against Juve, doesn't mean they'll win.

If prosecutors in Italy want to cite transfermarkt, that is up to them to justify against Juve's attorneys.

The judge or jury (whoever decides guilt or innocence in these cases) are the ones who decide what weight to give to what evidence.

If I was defending Juve, I would have a field day with a prosecutor relying on transfermarkt against my client, but I don't think those values are central to their case. The wiretaps are more persuasive and more damning for their state-of-mind than any comp website.

Like for example: zillow or redfin (websites for houses) where they give estimates on the cost of houses, those aren't (usually) permitted in US cases on real property values. US jurisdictions require you compare actual sales, you can't even use offers (unless your dispute is that offer itself).

Italy's rules might be different, the point is, what Juve officials said about the deals will be more important than comparing the prices, because you can get people to overpay. Look at Chelsea. The issue is state of mind here. And worse for Juve: they seemed to not just inflate transfers, but they then inflated them even more on their books. That is seemingly the huge difference between Juve and Napoli.

Italian football doesn't work together. England, Spain, they collude together. To protect the shield. Like the NFL. Serie A, they literally are like Game of Thrones. Or the Real Housewives. They'll betray each other, the league be damned.

No other league would have destroyed themselves like the Italians did with Calciopoli. They would have brushed it under the rug.
 

General

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YF is right about HZ though

he is not wrong there
 

Ash

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The prosecution can cite RnB to prosecute crimes against Juve, doesn't mean they'll win.

If prosecutors in Italy want to cite transfermarkt, that is up to them to justify against Juve's attorneys.

The judge or jury (whoever decides guilt or innocence in these cases) are the ones who decide what weight to give to what evidence.

If I was defending Juve, I would have a field day with a prosecutor relying on transfermarkt against my client, but I don't think those values are central to their case. The wiretaps are more persuasive and more damning for their state-of-mind than any comp website.

Like for example: zillow or redfin (websites for houses) where they give estimates on the cost of houses, those aren't (usually) permitted in US cases on real property values. US jurisdictions require you compare actual sales, you can't even use offers (unless your dispute is that offer itself).

Italy's rules might be different, the point is, what Juve officials said about the deals will be more important than comparing the prices, because you can get people to overpay. Look at Chelsea. The issue is state of mind here. And worse for Juve: they seemed to not just inflate transfers, but they then inflated them even more on their books. That is seemingly the huge difference between Juve and Napoli.

Italian football doesn't work together. England, Spain, they collude together. To protect the shield. Like the NFL. Serie A, they literally are like Game of Thrones. Or the Real Housewives. They'll betray each other, the league be damned.

No other league would have destroyed themselves like the Italians did with Calciopoli. They would have brushed it under the rug.
Agreed
 

fray

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Thats not the point tho is it.

We are talking about what the prosecution used as primary evidence for their argument.
Given it's Italy, I'm not surprised they've used Transfermarkt as evidence. However, my point is regardless if they've used Transfermarkt or just common sense, you need to contextualize the Primavera sales and not look at it in a bubble w/ Transfermarkt value and conclude with 'XYZ player isn't worth the fee'.

There's a tangible contextual difference between Bayern paying Rennes €30m for 17-year old Mathys Tel with a Transfermarkt value of €2m at the time and Genoa paying Juventus €20m for 21-year old Portanova and Petrelli.
 

Ash

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Given it's Italy, I'm not surprised they've used Transfermarkt as evidence. However, my point is regardless if they've used Transfermarkt or just common sense, you need to contextualize the Primavera sales and not look at it in a bubble w/ Transfermarkt value and conclude with 'XYZ player isn't worth the fee'.

There's a tangible difference between Bayern paying Rennes €30m for 17-year old Mathys Tel and Genoa paying Juventus €20m for 21-year old Portanova and Petrelli.
But thats just opinion - opinion doesnt hold up in court.

As has been said before, player values are subjective. Players are worth as much as clubs are willing to pay.

The difference in the Juve case is that they were recorded admittting to inflating transfer values. Without those wiretaps, the prosecution had nothing.

In fact, thats exactly happened when whey were acquitted the first time the case was brought against them.
 

vB9

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Pingu asks for investigation against ADL.

What happens? Possible investigation against ADL. Thank me later when we lift Scudetto.
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Thanks, juve & Napoli taken care of. But if we want the 2nd star this season, we better do sumthing abt all the other teams on that screenshot
 

yungeddy

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But you’re poor :lol:

ur ugly short spiky haired poor and u bribe people online for 200 euros so they agree with u on a internet forum...the most patethic a man can sink imo
Dont make me share the story and the picture cause we have alot of new members who dont even realize how patethic u are...:lol::lol:

Clearly you do or you'd stop replying to the topic.

And yes, I'm clueless. I wanted Ziyech - as you are advocating for - and saying he's an upgrade to our RW, but I'm clueless. What are you then? My point is that you say he has bad relations with his clubs/managers and we want to avoid that. And, you say he has been one of Chelsea's best meanwhile they want to offload him. Something doesn't add up.

Remove the shell from the peanut and maybe your brain expands to comprehend this.

Yes...i was not thinking when i logged in hey let me talk about ziyech with 3 clueless like pingu ash and pigeon (Only a clueless person would call the best player utterly useless)

U and many person are saying that he isnt WC...and im simply saying to whoever thinks that: ur clueless and probably dont watch or do watch and are reetarded
If u dont belong in this group then im sorry but because u are diehard pioli fan u are still clueless either way so it doesnt change anything
 

SecondStar

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Longo saying we're eyeing Pulisic for next season..why all the MilanLab patients?
Please no. Gerry, don’t do it. I would do anything in order for this transfer to never see the light of day. Anything.
 

IL-Capitano

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So aside from juve cooking the books and being their usual suspicious, corrupt and untrustworthy selves. How is everyone today.

A7D1BC9E-4247-4EF3-A03C-BD2E616D8561.gif
 
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