The Tactics Thread

[Calum1903]

Since the previous one got wiped, this will be the new thread for chin-stroking over-analysis of tactics. Rehashing of Andy Gray-isms will not be tolerated.

 

[Jasper]

weak thread intro.

 

[Calum1903]

weak thread intro.

I was going to start a discussion, but then I realised I'm too lazy. Any suggestions?

 

[Jasper]

I was going to start a discussion, but then I realised I'm too lazy. Any suggestions?

The best way usually is to say something like:
I made the thread you proposed. Discuss!

Even better is to make a thread and just write one word to the thread's first post:
Discuss

(no, I would have opened it myself, if I had anything on my mind)

 

[Jasper]

Compare Mourinho and Carlo, it will get popular in no time.

no tactics involved in those discussions.

 

[Az.]

Ok here`s something to discuss : balance in a team between "skills" and "muscle ".

Let`s say we pick the 4-3-3 formation to start with and pick Milan a subject(this should be familiar to everybody) how many "musicians " players do we need and how many "Guys to carry on the piano "( god i hate that fucking expression ) are necessary to balance the team out.

Get started ,im going to watch a movie and put a though in it later.

 

[Jasper]

I'm in no mood to think heavily. Let's just fvck up the thread and blame Calum's opening.

 

[Senatore_M84]

Ok here`s something to discuss : balance in a team between "skills" and "muscle ".

Let`s say we pick the 4-3-3 formation to start with and pick Milan a subject(this should be familiar to everybody) how many "musicians " players do we need and how many "Guys to carry on the piano "( god i hate that fucking expression ) are necessary to balance the team out.

Get started ,im going to watch a movie and put a though in it later.

I don't think Milan's problems 2007 on is a lack of muscle as it is just being physically ill equiped to play football. Too slow, unathletic and mostly immobile. Those team were younger (in midfield!) and strung together offensively by pirlo, same way you see barca these days make up for lack of physical presense with skill and movement.

2003 to 2007, pirlo was same player he is today. Slow, unathletic, a bit weak. Good passer, vision etc. But he had young seedorf, gattuso who moved all the time, CAM's like rui costa and kaka who moved. And Sheva/Pippo who again were always moving.

Pirlo strung whole team together distributing to so many attacking players. Gattuso cleaned up midfield, and seedorf (and pirlo) were underrated defensively. Seedorf in general did his job on defense (with occasional laziness). Pirlo, while not the strongest, how often did he go in for tackle and not come out w/ something? Not to mention tactically he read a lot of passes, got alot of interceptions. Issue defensively with pirlo was any counter which gets him in space, he had (and even worse now) has NO chance. but when you got seedorf, more so gattuso cleaning up often before it got there. Wasn't as big a liability.


Issue is watching Milan today, very little off ball movement, and when they do... unless it's pato, it's not like a defender out of position cannot recover.


I think it's ALOT harder to play this way though. You need very skilled versatile players who work for the team. It's why most coaches don't opt for these systems cause you just can't find that many seedorfs, pirlos etc. I think skill can beat muscle, but it's INFINITELY harder. It's great to see, but you really need to find the right players


Edit: In short, I think the ways of building your team on power/muscle and counter attacking is much easier and probably the most EFFECTIVE way to build a squad. That being said, without sounding like a cruyffian barTHa elitist, there is a level of beauty and ultimaterly i think it's more satisfying to build a team around techical skill and intelligence

 

[Ashish]

for once post without a bias you are too good for it, a great writer always post unbiased view, please post about our performance in last two years from a third person view and please please evaluate the performance of our midfield person by person i will appreciate it if its 100% unbiased(even though it might biased unintentionally)

i wont get what i want but might see anotherside of your view

no i dont believe you post unbiased post esp when it comes to our midfield and our ex coach but i like your brtually honest post on other points which dont affect your love(pirlo seefuck and carlo) or your hate(barca )

 

[Senatore_M84]

@!Ashish (I'll do my best to leave personal feelings out)....


I told you what i think happened. Team got older, slower, less athletic, less mobile. While all the midfield players can certainly be useful to a team, they aren;t usefull together. One of seedorf, pirlo can absolutely start, but we need younger midfielders (or not even younger but more mobile, harder working) around them.

They simply can't cover same ground they could cover. And the offensive movement is slower (go watch like 2005 and compare to 2010) and much more predictable because of that slowness.

I'll put it this way. If we put pirlo or seedorf in a midfield with a prime age destroyer, a box to box midfielder with technique and maybe switch borriello for someone more active. We'd see a much different team. Without throwing names. Imagine... schweinstagger + top form flamini with pirlo or seedorf. Any number of strikers in borriello's place with pato.


Actually think is, Milan prob don't even NEED to replace borriello. We saw different last game of year vs. juve with pato and games without pato. It's more about having a guy who is speedy and active to either partner with pato or to replace pato if he's being rested cause right now he's a 1 man attack.


Of course people who disagree with me will still say, you don't need pirlo or seedorf. Look at inter with cambiasso, zanetti just cleaning up and sneijder in front etc. And I won't deny it. You don't NEED the rossoneri players listed to win. But from a personal POV, i love football they play and the style they allow the team to play. And since you can win WITH them. Why not? Like I said, for me the football of 2003-6 (particularly end of it, was always most enjoyable to watch. Milan games were highlight of my week, as opposed to these days where it's like negativity dredging over the game coming to put me in a bad mood). We all got our own opinions on what we like to watch

 

[Ashish]

time pass by and players are not what they are

milan always needed a striker who can rip through opposite defense and strike, sheva before he left and he was never ever replaced
then milan were struggling and came a washed up great from real madrid who tore serie a new hole yet again ronaldo 10 goals in 14 matches, pippo or hunt is not the solution we need a mobile strong attacker to intimidate the defense

sometime when i see milan i see skill as an excuse for being not too atheltic, carlo knew these guys are not going to bust their ass so he stuffed midfield with class players who can pass around ball, like what we do in practice not lung busting game but a simple passing game and all the running was done by the fullbacks legendary players like cafu paolo sergi or even stam when he was deployed as full back.

we need to change we need to knock out that system lazy passing classy midfield type first of all we dont have enough personal, pirlo + seedorf is a fcking liability and dinho himself is a defensive liability its anto who bust his arse a lot but he brings goals to the team so we cant ever imagine pirlo+seedorf+dinho with mediocre strikers who cant **** opposite defenders and an unsettled flamini, we need to bring in a direct replacement for pirlo or seedorf, i prefer pirlo cause i am not a big fan of deep midfield lying player cause its predictable even if pirlo is stacked with talent(which i doubt) or convert pirlo to a AM. we take a lot of time on the ball sometimes simple tactics are better not always, we have system with two outlets all the ball goes to pirlo and then to dinho, which is too one dimensional.

we need one great fullback(or hope abate can improve) Dzeko who can create **** and score, and a verstaile midfielder who can run who can pass who can hold on the ball and who cna tackle, when ambro played good in the first half he linked with offense and defense really well and we went through a good time, pirlo is too deep and predictable if marked, seedorf is a puzzle.

new coach needs to make this bunch of faggots into one one unit, everything is decoupled, defense with fullbacks defense with midfield midfield with strikers only way defense is connected to strikers is anto -> dinho -> diagonal ball to strikers.

i agree huntelaar was a bad buy cause we dont have enough wing play, pipppo inzaghi huntelaar are not made for milan, we need a mauler a fighter.

MILAN NEED SKILL BUT ABOVE ALL WE NEED ATHLETES WORKERS WHO CAN GRIND IT OUT FIGHT IT OUT , WORK THE WAY UP.

we are not in 2006(last batch of great players) now its 2010 4 years past expiry date look out for next generation, old wood needs to be replaced.

PIPPO INZAGHIs extension is a DISGRACE, ultras wont protest against it cause pippo applauds them after game

 

[Senatore_M84]

For me, to be honest, i've always been a bigger fan of the 4-3-3 hybrids (talking 4-3-1-2/4-3-2-1. Particularly the latter.) One of those articles got me to reflect on scudetto season Milan, often played kaka, rui costa behind sheva. Good stuff. With right personnel.

In many ways chelsea plays a variation of it too in a 4-1-2-2-1 (or barca in 2006).

Drogba
Malouda-----cole
Lampard----ballack
Mikel​

Course they got so much depth they can vary it, but it's same principle. FB's push up, CMs will hold tactically when they do. Lots of triangles, every player has 2 passing options in each direction.

Lots of options to continue your run which lampard does better than anyone in world. Malouda drifts wide pulling a FB, pass to malouda, Drogba makes a run pulling LCB , during the process lampard has continued his run from deep into center, malouda passes ball to center lampard who has space cause unless opposing CM picks him up the FB and CB are occupied by drogba and malouda.

I think a main difference between these and say mourinho's 4-3-3's at chelsea is there is a lot more freedom to players to shift up and down and side to side. Malouda is not a played as a conventional winger, but he can drift in and out giving him freedom to attack from all angles.

Also i think because of this, it's why carlo teams draw so many PKs. Players have freedom to make runs from all angles, defenders get out of position. make late tackle, PK.


but then again it's all about personnel. Xmas tree with kaka, seedorf, pippo is infinitely different from rui costa, kaka, sheva because of obvious reasons. And TBH I think this is why Carlo wanted Ribery so much. Ribery/Kaka behind CF in xmas tree. Nice idea for good flowing attacking football.

 

[Senatore_M84]

MILAN NEED SKILL BUT ABOVE ALL WE NEED ATHLETES WORKERS WHO CAN GRIND IT OUT FIGHT IT OUT , WORK THE WAY UP.

can't disagree one bit. It's so simple really. It's all down to age. I mean you can't possibly expect a team with mostly over 30s to physically be able to close down and play with teams of players mostly in there mid 20s who are infinitely faster!

Most teams will play a couple older players, they bring together team, play intelligently etc. And there is something to be said for it. as nice as it sounds to start 11 guys 25 or younger, ask arsenal who that goes in big games. But when those few older players are surrounded by more active younger players who can do the work, different game.

 

[Ashish]

i agree if you have a versatile midfielder you can change 4-3-3 to anything

but i alwaasy wanted to see a team with 3 man defense, a sweeper but its over now, i always love flying fullbacks and a classic number 10. i so want to see a number 10 in milan so i am really pissed on gou sale.

zidane, riquelme, rui costa all were so class i so want a team with number 10, iam pissed up with this 4-3-3 formation, jack of everything master of none players(personal opinion)

 

[Senatore_M84]

i agree if you have a versatile midfielder you can change 4-3-3 to anything

but i alwaasy wanted to see a team with 3 man defense, a sweeper but its over now, i always love flying fullbacks and a classic number 10. i so want to see a number 10 in milan so i am really pissed on gou sale.

zidane, riquelme, rui costa all were so class i so want a team with number 10, iam pissed up with this 4-3-3 formation, jack of everything master of none players(personal opinion)

a 3-4-1-2? Nesta is not a sweeper but that argentine kid Odamendi is suppose to be one....

Brazil 2002 was probably last team to play this to perfection but when you got ronaldinho, rvialdo, ronaldo uptop... cafu and roberto carlos at wingback and edmilson (who can play that sweeper role) i mean. Thats pretty much ideal personnel to play that formation

 

[Ashish]

can't disagree one bit. It's so simple really. It's all down to age. I mean you can't possibly expect a team with mostly over 30s to physically be able to close down and play with teams of players mostly in there mid 20s who are infinitely faster!

Most teams will play a couple older players, they bring together team, play intelligently etc. And there is something to be said for it. as nice as it sounds to start 11 guys 25 or younger, ask arsenal who that goes in big games. But when those few older players are surrounded by more active younger players who can do the work, different game.

i hate arsene wegner, i agree we need old player but go manure way not milan way, old players should be benched and bought when we need them, there job is behind the screen not becoming super stars. i want old players who can sacrifice for milan not other way around *cough* pippo inzaghi *cough*

 

[Senatore_M84]

i hate arsene wegner, i agree we need old player but go manure way not milan way, old players should be benched and bought when we need them, there job is behind the screen not becoming super stars. i want old players who can sacrifice for milan not other way around *cough* pippo inzaghi *cough*

I don't think you can blame pippo as much as you are. He was willing to leave to get more playing time. Galliani begged him to stay.....

he's not like kaladze for ex who didnt wanna leave to collect paycheck. Pippo was about to go to parma or something to get time.


Eitherway, love pippo but for gods sake. WHY?!

 

[Ashish]

I don't think you can blame pippo as much as you are. He was willing to leave to get more playing time. Galliani begged him to stay.....

he's not like kaladze for ex who didnt wanna leave to collect paycheck. Pippo was about to go to parma or something to get time.


Eitherway, love pippo but for gods sake. WHY?!

i do love pippo milano but now i am in a mood not to support anyone on past accolades other than berlusconi, he is a milan legend but 7 million per year no chance for youngsters,
hunt is a cunt but he need chance, adiyah, pato as winger ......
so you are telling me we need to play and keep

mr inzaghi
mr pirlo
mr seedorf
mr dinho


along with a fragile nesta, young ones like abate antonini.
we are in a pickle unless a great coach takes over, god help milan

 

[Idris]

Before I share my opinion I just want to say that I think rigid formations and tactics are exaggerated. What we all at times fail to acknowledge is that the opposition ultimately defines how most teams set up. I can think of only a handful of teams currently that do not care what the opposition does i.e. Barcelona. In most games you will see varying formations from any one team.

Ok here`s something to discuss : balance in a team between "skills" and "muscle ".

Let`s say we pick the 4-3-3 formation to start with and pick Milan a subject(this should be familiar to everybody) how many "musicians " players do we need and how many "Guys to carry on the piano "( god i hate that fucking expression ) are necessary to balance the team out.

Get started ,im going to watch a movie and put a though in it later.

The 4-3-3, like every formation, has variations.

If your aim is to dominate and dictate then you need 6 midfielders/attackers that are comfortable in possession and fluid in their movement. You do not necessarily need a destroyer with a minimal skill set like Mascherano. If you are on the front foot for most of the game and dominating possession then the extra player is essential, there is no need for a player to sit in this set-up. You will however leave yourself susceptible to the counter-attack which is why most teams go for the insurance of a holding player.

I think the best 4-3-3's have players who are able to interchange and disrupt the opposition with movement. A specialist DM is pretty much useless in my opinion.

To go off topic - People talk about the demise of the no.10 but the lack of pure box to box midfielders is also a problem. I’ve never been a fan of players just sitting and holding in midfield, most of the elite teams have such good defenders they don’t need a guard to protect them at all times. Players like De Rossi and Essien are pure box to box midfielders but even they are shackled to just sit which is sad. They could offer so much more but the need for specialist players is ruining football.

 

[ikita]

here's something to chew on....

Leonardo is a brilliant person who had inspired an already tired Milan side to attaining third place in the Serie A league. His vision was outstanding in some cases but his ideal behind the type of football he wanted to play became a tired metaphor for excitement rather quickly. In our last few games, the green behind his ears really began to show I think as he never seemed to have a solution better than a 4-3-3. Perhaps this is not his fault. It must be remembered that the Milan attack is centered on Ronaldinho....bleh. While I admire his swift samba moves I have not gotten to like him as much as I thought I would have.

To me, he does not seem versatile at all. Yes in a couple of displays he switched positions with Pato/Beckham, however that is not much of a change. it still remains 4-3-3. At the start of the season one could have seen how Ronaldinho suffered tremendously in a 4-3-1-2 system. And I think that it is this incompatibility that failed Leonardo tremendously. if you recall our days with kaka, who back then was our lead in the attacking department (which he did performed quite well in up to his last match despite Ronaldinho getting in his space and breathing down his neck) Ancelotti was able to utilize kaka in a myriad of different attacking options. Recall the 4-4-2 that won us the 2007 CL against Liverpool, the usual 4-3-2-1 and 4-3-1-2 used in the Serie A league. Can King Ronnie impose himself in any of those? Perhaps in the 4-4-2...needless to say, King Ronnie is on a throne alone.

Many people discredit Ancelotti for our decline in the years coming to the end of his tenure at Milan, but I think Ancelotti had it right. So did Capello who also used a 4-4-2 around the time of Savicevic. If Pato takes the place of Savicevic in that line up alongside Borriello in attack, where to for Ronaldinho? So it's a question of Leonardo's incapability against Leonardo's limitations. Berlu wants to claim that Leonardo never listened to him. I think that was because Leonardo had a pretty good reason. Whatever Berlu was telling Leonardo to do would not inform the team to play any better than they were playing at the moment, particularly if Ronaldinho has to be in the lineup....

In the 4-2-3-1 system however there was a slight chance to attain better control of matches with Ronaldinho in the game of course. but the 3 behind the centre forward would've been king Ronnie, Seedorf and Pato and this was used in a couple of matches as well. Seeder unveiled to us all that, while he can really put some screamers into the back of the net and can have moments of sheer brilliance(recall his chip pass over the entire Madrid defense that gave Pato the winner in the Bernabeu) he is no longer the fashionable trequartista that he himself praised at once. This season that's gone by, I've seen Seedorf misplace passes to others and miscontrol passes from others more than I've seen Dida spill some common saves. seriously, with Seedorf in that line-up from above, the line of 3 behind the striker quickly collapses and Ronnie is left to work all alone, and again pushes out to the left, as he usually does with Seedorf tracking back to regain possession that he himself clumsily lost.

We have no one to play a CAM role and we suffer because of it. Do you really think that Leonardo would have always kept at the 4-3-3 if there was still Kaka in the team?? Does Leonardo know nothing about any other formation? It's hard to think so when you consider that he was also an attacking midfielder some 12 years ago or so. Without someone else to step in, our attack becomes a boring predictable distorted monochrome picture of glories past.

Maybe we got the wrong Blanco from Real. Maybe we should've gotten Sneijder instead or Robben. think about it, we just sold an attacking midfielder and we buy a striker instead? Hmmm, that's questionable. I've no other problem with Huntelaar other than the fact that we probably didn't need him to begin with. We already had Borriello who at that time was not yet proven, we had Pato as well as Inzaghi who showed us that he cannot play for numerous games at a time and still score (recall his goal against Zurich and against Novara). The signing of one of those guys would've given us a totally different dimension in the midfield and in attack as well. I attribute this to Berlu again. I believe that Berlu had too much faith in Ronaldhino, and saw Ronaldhino as an equal to Kaka...biggest mistake of his life

There is no equal to Kaka and he should have never been sold without the slightest resemblance of a replacement. Gourcuff you say? Again, Berlu lost faith in him whereas I was ready to see him start and was outraged to see him booted out unkindly to Bordeaux. I think that our failures and disappointments all stem from this situation. maybe it was all orchestrated by Leonardo himself, who had actually asked for Ronaldhino in the season previous to Kaka's sale, knowing that he would want to use the brazil 1980's 4-3-3 formation.(he did mention that at the start of the campaign) If so then Leo was purely mistaken. Note that Kaka would've been quite good at where King Ronnie is playing now, had he stayed, he would have even been better than Ronnie.

In the end I think I'd go with Leonardo's limitations. Leonardo's no fool, having spent all his life in football; he would know what to do in certain situations and would have known also what could not be done. Berlu said that Leonardo is pig-headed. I think Berlu is pig-headed for having not understood the football of Leonardo... (Recall Leonardo saying, "So few understand football these days.") Leonardo however is gone, although I think him along with our football team and an attacking midfielder of similar quality to kaka would've been much better next season, had he stayed on. However every relationship between people is like a spectrum and after a certain level the spectrum ends and the relationship becomes inconsequential. Leonardo felt that he should not have to satisfy the whims of Berlu and sacrifice his style of play which would be limited due to Berlu again, not having another midfielder or two to choose from.

My final thought....

Maybe a lot of people will not agree with this, and I'm pretty sure that there are some on this forum, but I think Ronaldhino is not capable of holding the mantle of our attack any longer. IMHO he never was after seeing his decay in Barcelona. His versatility, is poor, his determination exponentially decreases after having lost out on dribbling against defenders, his style of play is a regurgitation of one thing over and over, which the entire team soon becomes over time, in a match. The idea of centering a team on him is not effective. Ronaldhino should be sold.

So should Seedorf. This season he has gotten the best of me by simply underperforming, especially at times when we needed everyone to be at their best. Maybe in your mind you can live in the past, but not on the football pitch, and that is where we need everyone's wits to be.

Pirlo has been a steady decrease in performance too, so much so this season that I want him on the bench next season.... there may be a lot of objection to that one, but consider this. Pirlo, the once great metronome is not the player that can control the midfield anymore. At times he seems to be a tired strained midfielder who still executes superb passes but without knowing why or where it will lead. Maybe the change in playing style is the cause for that with a slightly different link between the midfield and the attack, but I fail to see how he could not impose himself in any match if he still is as great as he was. Before you go off arguing this point, remember everyone gets old and will have to leave.

Next to him on the bench should be Gattuso. Gattuso is in a period similar to Pirlo and if they can't reproduce their once shining qualities then there is no way forward for the club if they are still in the starting XI. What would you prefer? Seeing a decaying Gattuso miss tackles and gets sent off? Or seeing lively Flamini win tackles? (Or miss them too and gets sent off: D)

I want both Otamendi and Toloi. But either one is fine if they could replace Abate. Without a doubt, Abate has proven that he cannot play at RB. I don't care what anyone says but please, no more Abate at RB. His speed is awesome, his crosses are not the best and his footwork is much better suited in the midfield. I didn't expect him to be Maicon, but he should at least try if he wants to remain in the starting XI, which is what he didn't do. Try-outs in the midfield? I'll leave that up to the next coach. To gain more, you have to give up what you've currently got. If you never saw videos of Abate playing as a midfielder, then don't judge him. RM is his natural position. (I think)

And lastly. The purchase of an attacking midfielder. No pure wingers please. I think that Milan is better suited for a 4-3-1-2 formation, indicating the need for a CAM. It's also welcomed if he can play on the left and/or right of attack as this widens our pool of different attacking strategies; a thing that Leonardo was unable to do. Anyone up for an Eden Hazard? In the event that we choose to actually field pure DM with Ambrosini and Flamini on the pitch at the same time then a 4-2-3-1 will also work perfectly. With a CAM like Hazard in between Ronnie and Pato and Borriello up on top…pure devastation.
As for the coach, I had wanted Galli for some time, but then I heard that when he was in charge of the Primavera, they were complete non-sense. I don't remember it exactly but I think that they did not do well. So for me, it's Allegri.

For a belief in anything there is comfort in words​

 

[manutd fan]

Before I share my opinion I just want to say that I think rigid formations and tactics are exaggerated. What we all at times fail to acknowledge is that the opposition ultimately defines how most teams set up. I can think of only a handful of teams currently that do not care what the opposition does i.e. Barcelona. In most games you will see varying formations from any one team.



The 4-3-3, like every formation, has variations.

If your aim is to dominate and dictate then you need 6 midfielders/attackers that are comfortable in possession and fluid in their movement. You do not necessarily need a destroyer with a minimal skill set like Mascherano. If you are on the front foot for most of the game and dominating possession then the extra player is essential, there is no need for a player to sit in this set-up. You will however leave yourself susceptible to the counter-attack which is why most teams go for the insurance of a holding player.

I think the best 4-3-3's have players who are able to interchange and disrupt the opposition with movement. A specialist DM is pretty much useless in my opinion.

To go off topic - People talk about the demise of the no.10 but the lack of pure box to box midfielders is also a problem. I’ve never been a fan of players just sitting and holding in midfield, most of the elite teams have such good defenders they don’t need a guard to protect them at all times. Players like De Rossi and Essien are pure box to box midfielders but even they are shackled to just sit which is sad. They could offer so much more but the need for specialist players is ruining football.

Agree with most of that. Especially the last paragraph.

 

[crazy4milan]

Before I share my opinion I just want to say that I think rigid formations and tactics are exaggerated. What we all at times fail to acknowledge is that the opposition ultimately defines how most teams set up. I can think of only a handful of teams currently that do not care what the opposition does i.e. Barcelona. In most games you will see varying formations from any one team.

Very true about opposition defining the set up of a team.

IMO that lack of changing the tactic well at first specially with the right players it will give you a huge advantage cause you'll start playing basically by memory, but the minute a team finds out how to stop it, it's only a matter of time before everyone else realize that's the best way to stop your team. It happened to Barcelona after 2006, it happened to them in 1994, and it happened again this year. Of course, they have at this moment great individual players including several of them that are their prime, all playing as a great unit, and on top of that they are a very fast team, which is another advantage they have, but the minute last season that Chelsea found out how to play them...was what helped Inter exposed them this season.

And I'm using Barcelona cause the other team that never changes it's tactic that I'm think of atm is Arsenal, but since they don't have the "it" players that Barcelona does have + what M84 said (their lack of 2-3 experienced leaders) whenever they face a bigger rival they lose. In fact when they play against a team that plays their exact same football they're helpless (look at the quarter finals, it was ridiculous how if they didn't had the ball they didn't know what to do other than basically bend over).

 

[Senatore_M84]

If your aim is to dominate and dictate then you need 6 midfielders/attackers that are comfortable in possession and fluid in their movement. You do not necessarily need a destroyer with a minimal skill set like Mascherano. If you are on the front foot for most of the game and dominating possession then the extra player is essential, there is no need for a player to sit in this set-up. You will however leave yourself susceptible to the counter-attack which is why most teams go for the insurance of a holding player.

I think the best 4-3-3's have players who are able to interchange and disrupt the opposition with movement. A specialist DM is pretty much useless in my opinion.

To go off topic - People talk about the demise of the no.10 but the lack of pure box to box midfielders is also a problem. I’ve never been a fan of players just sitting and holding in midfield, most of the elite teams have such good defenders they don’t need a guard to protect them at all times. Players like De Rossi and Essien are pure box to box midfielders but even they are shackled to just sit which is sad. They could offer so much more but the need for specialist players is ruining football.

great post. I think the counter-attack is a big reason there's such a shift in football. It's largely tied to rise of EPL. But basically, there is no denying counter-attack is simplest and most effective way to win. Break up opposing attack and counter as fast as possible. Based on organization, physicality and speed over skill and intelligence...

Managers who play that style like Mourinho drastically changing way football is played. And it's a large reason, I'll say I care for Carlo more than him. Not to knock Jose in anyway, but what he does, sign specific players, to play a specific calculated tactic which doesn't really encourage freedom of expression of creative football... I mean, what can I say. I just don't enjoy it. It may be effective, but it bleeds beauty out of the game.

 

[crazy4milan]

great post. I think the counter-attack is a big reason there's such a shift in football. It's largely tied to rise of EPL. But basically, there is no denying counter-attack is simplest and most effective way to win. Break up opposing attack and counter as fast as possible. Based on organization, physicality and speed over skill and intelligence...

I would say it's the simplest way to play IF you have the organization + the defensive set up to play it (ok and the players too but the job the coach has to make to build that organization is huge). As for the rest I agree.

 

[Senatore_M84]

I would say it's the simplest way to play IF you have the organization + the defensive set up to play it (ok and the players too but the job the coach has to make to build that organization is huge). As for the rest I agree.

Yeah, i'm trying to be careful how isay it, cause i loathe barca fans and cruyff and all those holier-than-thou fucks who think if you don't play artsy you suck.


There is no denying the effectiveness of Mourinho. Guys a straight winner, probably best winner in world.

I guess i'm saying i'd sacrifice success to have football i enjoy watching week in week out. And thats not saying i want a 4-2-4 nonstop attack. Just balanced, well thought of football, which is kind of how i've always associated calcio (atleast upper half of table teams).

 

[ikita]

Yeah, i'm trying to be careful how isay it, cause i loathe barca fans and cruyff and all those holier-than-thou fucks who think if you don't play artsy you suck.


There is no denying the effectiveness of Mourinho. Guys a straight winner, probably best winner in world.

I guess i'm saying i'd sacrifice success to have football i enjoy watching week in week out. And thats not saying i want a 4-2-4 nonstop attack. Just balanced, well thought of football, which is kind of how i've always associated calcio (atleast upper half of table teams).

indeed. maybe it's more of a situation of what to do and when to do it. i mean like, you know you can play fancy football and make it look pretty but the idea of any match is to win it. to win a match you need to play effective, balanced, controlled football, with the purpose of scoring goals. in that effectiveness then you can be stylish in your gameplay a little, with your players doing cheeky tricks, but not to the extent where that's all you focus on. For me, it's a bit of both worlds. at one point AC Milan had established that sort of play. Now it's a task of reassuming that style of play.

 

[Az.]

I don't think Milan's problems 2007 on is a lack of muscle as it is just being physically ill equiped to play football. Too slow, unathletic and mostly immobile. Those team were younger (in midfield!) and strung together offensively by pirlo, same way you see barca these days make up for lack of physical presense with skill and movement.

2003 to 2007, pirlo was same player he is today. Slow, unathletic, a bit weak. Good passer, vision etc. But he had young seedorf, gattuso who moved all the time, CAM's like rui costa and kaka who moved. And Sheva/Pippo who again were always moving.

Pirlo strung whole team together distributing to so many attacking players. Gattuso cleaned up midfield, and seedorf (and pirlo) were underrated defensively. Seedorf in general did his job on defense (with occasional laziness). Pirlo, while not the strongest, how often did he go in for tackle and not come out w/ something? Not to mention tactically he read a lot of passes, got alot of interceptions. Issue defensively with pirlo was any counter which gets him in space, he had (and even worse now) has NO chance. but when you got seedorf, more so gattuso cleaning up often before it got there. Wasn't as big a liability.


Issue is watching Milan today, very little off ball movement, and when they do... unless it's pato, it's not like a defender out of position cannot recover.


I think it's ALOT harder to play this way though. You need very skilled versatile players who work for the team. It's why most coaches don't opt for these systems cause you just can't find that many seedorfs, pirlos etc. I think skill can beat muscle, but it's INFINITELY harder. It's great to see, but you really need to find the right players


Edit: In short, I think the ways of building your team on power/muscle and counter attacking is much easier and probably the most EFFECTIVE way to build a squad. That being said, without sounding like a cruyffian barTHa elitist, there is a level of beauty and ultimaterly i think it's more satisfying to build a team around techical skill and intelligence

While i do agree with most of your post,i cant really agree with the effective part.I think as a counter attack team based on power/muscle you need a good chunk of luck to bypass a team that is composed mainly on skilled players.

And i mean skilled players in there prime and not past it like Milan has now,i mean ones that have what you said : good off the ball movement.If the skilled team is on top of there game,it only takes a goal to open the power /muscle team up and the later can be torn a new asshole once there forced to open up play .

Out of curiosity lets see what will take to make Milan a team like before in 4-3-3 first :

-The 3 man up front right now are : Pato ,Dihno &Borrielo.Pato has good off the ball movement and is skilled enough,Borrielo works hard has off the ball movement but is not good enough to constantly create chances or take advantage of the ones created for him.

In conclusion out of the first 11 he should be the first to get the axe.Now while Ronaldihno`s contribution in assist for Milan has been invaluable this season ,he is rather immobile this days isn't he ?Unfortunately he lost a gear,but if someone like Dzeko is brought in up front to pair Pato and him ,i think 2 out of 3 should be enough to get the attack to be mobile .

Midfield is where were fucked the most.We simply dont really have the players to form a 3 man mobile midfield ,let alone a 4 to switch to a 4-4-2 or something.

Flamini is the only one with speed in him,off the ball movement and if he can tone down the kamikaze acts ,he could be the new Gattuso for Milan.(this is a big if though)

Pirlo this days can dictate the tempo of the game,but his well not mobile enough to intercept /tackle opposing players.But if we surround him with Flamini and a good box to box CM,he could prove to be world class again with no problems.

Ambrosini : while one of our best players this season,his age and rather limited skill on the ball dont exactly make him that box to box CM we need.We definitely need to invest here.

Antonini: Much to my surprise he has proven his good enough to be our left fullback.His off the ball movement is very good,his crosses/passes are good enough(and improving )and in defense his good,not great but good.If he stays fit for most of the season and keeps up with the good displays from this season,we could be set here for the next 4-5 years.

T.Silva:really needs no description.Monster

Nesta: Last of dying breed of great defenders.He has everything ,he can defend,push up etc but the one thing he lacks is well..his health back.We cant depend on him for the whole season,we did this season we where actually at one point in the title chase till he got injured.

We need to invest here also as none of our current back up CD`S are good enough.Maybe Yepes is going to prove to be a surprise but i would not hold my breath.

Abate /Zambrotta.The first one has of the ball movement but is shit in every other department .The later one was once the perfect full back now all he really has is a good defensive play but has a big minus everywhere else.We really need to invest here also unfortunately .

Abbiati should be fine as our first GK as long as he has a good defensive line in front of him.


So in short only to revamp the first 11 we need :

-A striker
-A box to box CM
-A good CB to alternate with Nesta
-A RB

Unless we find some cheap players that turn world class overnight ,i say were looking at roughly 50 millions needed to revamp only the first team not including solid back ups for every position on the field .

In short : our priority should be to keep the 4-3-3 formation and fill the gaps in this one.Any other formation will require to much money to be revamped .This summer with the sale of all the dead wood and with Berlusconi investing a minimum of 30 millions in the team we can have one of the best first 11 in the whole world.

With luck and none of them getting long term injuries we might win a trophy next season.Money wise preferably we should go after the Champions League and just secure the 2nd or 3rd place in serie A.This would get us enough money for the 2011/2012 season to bring in solid back ups for all the first team players.

Even if we dont win the CL,the money from the qualification and a good run in it should prove to be enough.

 

[Sage]

Milan played more of a 4-2-1-3 with leo, it was ambro pirlo and seedorf ahead of them, IMO if Allegri/new coach is gonna stick to the same idea of the 3 attackers I'd rather we play a proper 4-3-3, something like this

abs

rb-nesta-silva-lb

Ambrosini
Box to box mf Pirlo

pato Dzeko/ect. dinho

We need an active midfield, this season ambro was in charge of defending the midfield and was also playing as a box to box MC at times(watch the genoa game 5-2) I think we need to have him play as a holding midfielder(or just buy a new DM) and buy a box to box athletic midfielder that can add make the difference in midfield and attack, the more athletic our midfield is(with enough technique) the more it will dominate.

I wont discuss RB/LB winger and striker issues because those are obviously needed, but if we were to stick to the 4-3-3, we NEED a box to box mc imo.

 

[Ashish]

So in short only to revamp the first 11 we need :

-A striker
-A box to box CM
-A good CB to alternate with Nesta
-A RB

near perfect post Az near perfect post, analysed to make us a team.
precisely god precisely

s striker to destroy offense so that dinho and pato can have free license to riot

box to box cm so that flamini can destroy plays and pirlo/seedorf can dictate and be lazy for a while

Nesta is done, if he comes back its a bonus he cant be risked cause he is invaluable.

and a full back

again perfect post

Alves as goal keeper

 

[Sven]

I'm against stick to an unique tatic. It's impossible that the same tatics will be the answer to every game. That's my biggest criticism of Leo, he couldn't made anything else work this season, and when the 4-3-3 doesn't worked, there was no other plan.