Spanish La Liga Thread (BBVA)

[Casualista]

Sure but he won't have the luxury of Xabi Alonso plus Busquets and Fabregas dropping to midfield when needed.

Pretty sure thats not an issue if milan is gonna be playing deep and counter attacking. And anyway, guardiolas team was way more dynamic in mixing and matching starting line ups than ancelottis. Had more depth as well. And good quality depth (not vikash dhorasoo, gourcuff, brocchi and fat ronaldo ). He could put yaya toure on to cut off counters instead of a defender.

 

[milanicious]

Pretty sure thats not an issue if milan is gonna be playing deep and counter attacking. And anyway, guardiolas team was way more dynamic in mixing and matching starting line ups than ancelottis. Had more depth as well. And good quality depth (not vikash dhorasoo, gourcuff, brocchi and fat ronaldo ). He could put yaya toure on to cut off counters instead of a defender.

That will be actually the biggest issue it means that kaka will mostly be 1 on 1 on Busquets in all the counters which won't be very good for Barca ( Not like Xavi pressuring will completely stop Kaka).

We can still put Tomasson to score a late goal or Ambrosini for a late header.

 

[Soldier_of_god]

Dunno what this has to do with anything.

Lets say shevs's goal was allowed and we did eventually win... We were still barely going on level terms with them...
Sorry to burst your dinho bias but Guardiolas barca was a different class to rijkaards.... Much better unit in every way.

Thats a good enough indication for me that guardiola's team was better than ancelotti's.

That was in 2004. Carlo's milan squad played much better in 05 despite choking in the ucl final. Over 2 legs i am pretty sure they can defeat pep's barca. We performed well in short format competitions.
Pep's barca were lucky to win 2 of their champions league titles anyway. They struggled to beat a rather mediocre arsenal side who dint even have their full team available at the time. If van pussy dint get red carded incorrectly, barca would have lost that encounter. They were trailing until then.

 

[Soldier_of_god]

That will be actually the biggest issue it means that kaka will mostly be 1 on 1 on Busquets in all the counters which won't be very good for Barca ( Not like Xavi pressuring will completely stop Kaka).

We can still put Tomasson to score a late goal or Ambrosini for a late header.

Kaka destroyed messi in his prime.

 

[Casualista]

That will be actually the biggest issue it means that kaka will mostly be 1 on 1 on Busquets in all the counters which won't be very good for Barca ( Not like Xavi pressuring will completely stop Kaka).

We can still put Tomasson to score a late goal or Ambrosini for a late header.

Not really. First off, I dont think it is very hard to mark pirlo out of a game if a team is consciously trying for it. In all probability if u press him enough you will probably get an easy run at milan defense. He and seedorf are stone cold liabilities defending as well. Part of reason why milan was poor in defending is because gattuso had to cover too much ground not providing enough cover for defense. It was a very unbalanced team.

I expect kaka to be isolated most of the match or be playing extremely deep with the defense. Same for shevchenko. The only guy upfront would be inzaghi. And he would probably break the offside line, but the offside line being high I dont think he would be able to capitalize much on it due to lack of pace.

I guess milan can put on tomasson but then guardiola can probably put on pedro.

Milan were far more balanced in 07 after shevchenko left and ambrosini came into mid field to slot as extra defensive. hands for gattuso. I would probably give that team a better shot at winning.... Too bad they were so old.

Anyway, i am done with the hypotheticals. Sacchi will always be the best.. Guardiola probably the second best from what i have seen.

 

[Soldier_of_god]

That part is certainly true. Seedorf and peerlo were liabilities defensively but they were not complete slouches either. In big games, they tracked back quite well. I still remember how well dorf played against bayern lol in 07. Dude was not just phenomenal going forward like always on big occasions, he even rushed back to defend whenever milan lost the ball. In an important two legged fixture, this could either way but in domestic competitions i would back pep's barca side to do better.

 

[Qaas]

Barcelona 2008-2010/11 the best team in the last decade. That fast tiki taka and the way they pressed the opponents when they lost the ball was just impressive.. And yea they had messi, who imo was even better at that time, not to mention iniesta and xavi in their best years.
Our 2005 milan was good, but our mentality was just off at times.. Like how could we loose to Liverpool 2005 and deportivo 2004.. Those things would never to the mentioned barcelona side.

 

[Soldier_of_god]

Well they dint choke cause refs favoured them often. They resorted to cheating and diving tactics to fool refs. Hence why barca have never been in a position that could potentially force them to choke. Refs were far too lenient back then. So that needs to be accounted for as well, cause what may seem to be like a yellow card offence post 2010 would easily have been waved as play on.

 

[leaf]

Busquets stopping prime Kakà??
The same Kakà that stole the ball from Messi and beat the whole of fucking Argentina to score? Yeah ok

 

[Raz]

Not really. First off, I dont think it is very hard to mark pirlo out of a game if a team is consciously trying for it. In all probability if u press him enough you will probably get an easy run at milan defense. He and seedorf are stone cold liabilities defending as well. Part of reason why milan was poor in defending is because gattuso had to cover too much ground not providing enough cover for defense. It was a very unbalanced team.

I expect kaka to be isolated most of the match or be playing extremely deep with the defense. Same for shevchenko. The only guy upfront would be inzaghi. And he would probably break the offside line, but the offside line being high I dont think he would be able to capitalize much on it due to lack of pace.

I guess milan can put on tomasson but then guardiola can probably put on pedro.

Milan were far more balanced in 07 after shevchenko left and ambrosini came into mid field to slot as extra defensive. hands for gattuso. I would probably give that team a better shot at winning.... Too bad they were so old.

Anyway, i am done with the hypotheticals. Sacchi will always be the best.. Guardiola probably the second best from what i have seen.

Barca can't mark for shit, never could, so your theory falls down right from the first sentence.

 

[Casualista]

Barca can't mark for shit, never could, so your theory falls down right from the first sentence.

 

[Raz]

ok

 

[joyrider]

Capellos milan is the greatest I ever saw.

Legendary 4 line and dessailly as DM.

Cl cup final 4-0

 

[Madridista]

Barcelona at the time when they crushed Mourinho's Madrid was the best team I ever saw. They were simply at a different level, perfect sync and chemistry, perfect system for all their players and mentality/workrate. I like to glorify the original Galacticos of Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Raul and Ronaldo but they were also moody and their defence was bad. at their best, it was the most magical football I've seen, but they didn't turn it often enough, and against defensively sound sides like Juventus, they got exposed.

 

[Soldier_of_god]

Current madrid side >>>>> any of pep's barca side .

 

[Madridista]

Its hard to tell. When that Barca appeared with the tiki-taka, it was a revolution. Nobody knew how to play against that. Now its passe, good coaches found a formula to counter them; I think its easier to play them now not just because they are weaker, but because teams have developed a counter strategy. But they never could have developed that approach until they got thrashed by Barca in the first place. Tt that time, their intensity and method was so unexpected and therefore unstoppable.

still, Barca won the 2011 CL based on a scandalous decision with Madrid aka Pepe's red card, who knows what it would have been had Wolfgang Stark not refereed that game.

 

[Wild]

Barcelona at the time when they crushed Mourinho's Madrid was the best team I ever saw. They were simply at a different level, perfect sync and chemistry, perfect system for all their players and mentality/workrate. I like to glorify the original Galacticos of Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Raul and Ronaldo but they were also moody and their defence was bad. at their best, it was the most magical football I've seen, but they didn't turn it often enough, and against defensively sound sides like Juventus, they got exposed.

Wow , didnt expect sense from you when talking about Barca but spot on.
Barca would have destroyed Carlo's Milan easily.
I mean Dortmund LOL , Depor LOL , Liver ROFL ...... come one.

Milan's Sachi & Capello are the only teams in history that could have stopped Pep's Barca.

 

[jammin]

Current Real the greatest counter attacking side of all time?

 

[leaf]

Wow , didnt expect sense from you when talking about Barca but spot on.
Barca would have destroyed Carlo's Milan easily.
I mean Dortmund LOL , Depor LOL , Liver ROFL ...... come one.

Milan's Sachi & Capello are the only teams in history that could have stopped Pep's Barca.

You're the guy that wanted Carlo replaced by Guus Hiddink right?

 

[Wild]

Current Real the greatest counter attacking side of all time?

Nah , that would be Mou's Inter & maybe Atletico of last season.

 

[Casualista]

Current Real the greatest counter attacking side of all time?

Current madrid side isnt greatest anything. They are 'just' great.

 

[General]

Current madrid side isnt greatest anything. They are 'just' great.

Agreed.. That said, my last post wasn't talkin bout Milan.

In my opinion - Carlo's career over the long haul and his skill set as a motivator, tactician etc etc etc edges Pep

 

[Casualista]

Carlo literally has a decade head start over him in age and managing career with only one extra ucl to show for it. I think guardiola will end his career more successful.

 

[Sven]

They would take out our possession and Pirlo would be sort of useless. We would struggle a lot with their pressing and tempo too.

We could still play a good shutdown game and get a few chances on counter.

To say more than that... only with a crystal ball

 

[Wild]

Agreed.. That said, my last post wasn't talkin bout Milan.

In my opinion - Carlo's career over the long haul and his skill set as a motivator, tactician etc etc etc edges Pep

I think he is more a motivator than a tactician.
He can create unity & allow great players to have the harmony needed to play their best.
But he is not a great tactician & surely not an innovator & neither is Mourinho for that matter.
Pep is a better tactician & surely an innovator & his career is already better.

 

[Wild]

They would take out our possession and Pirlo would be sort of useless. We would struggle a lot with their pressing and tempo too.

We could still play a good shutdown game and get a few chances on counter.

To say more than that... only with a crystal ball

Probably.
Also that Milan couldnt handle Dinho in form let alone an entire team clicking like a swiss clock.

Anyone remember the way we used to play the offside trap ?
I mean teams used to stand clueless as they did vs Pep's Barca.
Our strategy used to charge all our players chasing the guy with the ball & leaving him with one option & that to dribble past the entire team LOL
Now think of how good that Barca with thorough & lob passes to break the offside trap & you will have the match of the century.

 

[leaf]

Probably.
Also that Milan couldnt handle Dinho in form let alone an entire team clicking like a swiss clock.

Anyone remember the way we used to play the offside trap ?
I mean teams used to stand clueless as they did vs Pep's Barca.
Our strategy used to charge all our players chasing the guy with the ball & leaving him with one option & that to dribble past the entire team LOL
Now think of how good that Barca with thorough & lob passes to break the offside trap & you will have the match of the century.

When you have not one but two world class readers of the game like Maldini and Nesta....Barca's incredible ticki taka game isn't what's going to undo the '05 Milan.

A wildcard magician like Ronaldinho is what's going to do it. People get mad at me when I said that a prime Ronaldinho would destroy Maldini but it's simply true....his dribbling and unothrodox trickery had and will get him past ANY defender. Ronaldo did it to both Maldini and Nesta and Dinho could do it too.

So what Barca have left is the dribbling of Iniesta and Messi. I could conceivably see Messi beating Nesta/Maldini but it isn't as guaranteed as a prime Dinho.....They would have had a lot of problems dealing with the pace of Eto'o or the predatory instincts of Villa. Just as Inzaghi didn't need much pace or physique to sniff out half-chances on goal....Villa is pretty much the same....plus he had a world of technique that Pippo never had.

I think Crespo is being criminally underrated in this discussion....as is the greatest Brazilian right back in decades.....Cafu

 

[Wet Ones]

About defenders there is for sure lesser individuals but teams compensate , maybe as a reaction , that by adopting to a team defensive approach.
And SPL defense was always like that , I mean come one , an Italian team with a mediocre striker scored four against a huge Barca in a CL final.

A one off. Has never happened since.

No one gave us a chance. Neutrals I mean. And not even Milan fans expected us to score 4 goals.

And you say maybe as a reaction the teams adopt a 'team defensive' approach. How many teams can you actually name right now that do this well?

I think the older teams had a combination of the two. Superb individual defenders who excelled as part of a defensive unit.

Also Brazilian national team's defense is & always was a joke yet they have more world cups than any other country ---- > in your face

Which was the last WC they won before 1994?

1970.

And the 94 team was one of the most defensive teams I've ever seen win a World Cup.

Plus Messi has been pretty mediocre to average in the world cups anyway so i don't even know why you are including this tournament

Now talking about Milan , our Milan not the current one , I dont think our amazing defense was related to our great defenders that to be honest we did had & a bunch (Baresi-Maldini-Costa-Massa-Des....)
I think our legendary defensive approach was due to the system rather than individuals & again I give example of that CL final with Barca when the one of the best attacking system of all time didnt score one past us despite the fact we missed our two best defenders of all time in Baresi & Costacurta.

As mentioned above, it was clearly a combination of both.

Take the recent game against Barca for example. Under Allegri.

We defended amazingly as a unit. However Nesta singlehandedly (on many occasions) shut Messi up with his individual defensive skills.

Which brings me to another point...

Is it just me or does Man marking Messi with a good defensive player almost completely shut him off?

From recent memory I can think of Nesta, Pepe (to an extent), Sokratis lol and Koscielny. I'm sure there were others. I mean when they chase him down like a rabid dog every time he has the ball.

Too bad there aren't many teams that do that anymore or even have the players capable of doing it.

 

[Madridista]

I think he is more a motivator than a tactician.
He can create unity & allow great players to have the harmony needed to play their best.
But he is not a great tactician & surely not an innovator & neither is Mourinho for that matter.
Pep is a better tactician & surely an innovator & his career is already better.

Mourinho made Pep run to the Bundesfodder where even my grandmother would be champion if coaching Bayern. The great tactician and innovator got schooled by Ancelotti last year and Mourinho before that, and he still can't come up with anything inovative since the tiki taka of five years ago. hes been exposed and he hasn't brought anything new to the table ever since. Oh yeah, he made Lahm a DM, boo fucking hoo. Carlo made Pirlo and Kroos DM and James/Isco box to box CM.

Barca 2010 was the best team I ever saw, but Pep has done nada ever since. He's not better than Ancelotti or Mourinho.

 

[leaf]

Carlo is one of the most innovative coaches I've ever had the priviledge of watching.

Carlo's issue is not tactical. It's that he gets complacent and loses concentration. This is why he's a fantastic cup coach and an ok league coach.

Carlo was creative everywhere....in his tactics, formations, mentalities, subs and creative utilization of all players not named Thierry Henry.

Part of the reason got so shit coming down to the end of Carlo's tenure is because Carlo was that resourceful (see Galliani's comments about Seedorf being a striker etc).

Kaka' won "best midfielder" and "best striker" in the CL under Carlo and Seedorf also won "best mid" under him.

On the other hand....I could easily see Carlo getting a Brazil-Germany-esque hiding one day.....genius is a messy trait at times