The Tactics Thread

[hdcantona]

rofl - you crack me up Calum

 

[crazy4milan]

In Friday's match against the Czech Republic, Scotland manager Craig Levein fielded a highly innovative 4-6-0 formation. It shaped up like this:


- 2 centre backs
- 2 athletic, attacking (by nature, although not in this game) full backs
- 1 centre back playing as a static defensive midfielder
- 1 mobile destroyer
- 2 technically competent "creative" centre midfielders
- 2 reasonably athletic, hard working wide players
- 0 strikers


Has anyone seen a team play with no strikers before?

Carlo tried to implement it, in 2007, but he was too "coward" to do it from the start of a game . Although well he used Ambrossini as a fake strikers several times.

Fuck international football. I think I'll be a Brazil fan. LOOOOOOOL at Shitaly!!!!!!

.

 

[Senatore_M84]

Carlo tried to implement it, in 2007, but he was too "coward" to do it from the start of a game . Although well he used Ambrossini as a fake strikers several times.

you know it's fair to note in 08/09 ambrosini scored only 2 less goals from open play than kaka. But of course FU CARLO, IDIOT STARTED AMBROSINI OVER FLAMINI, CARDACCIO AND VUIDEZ!!! You know... just saying

 

[Jasper]

In Friday's match against the Czech Republic, Scotland manager Craig Levein fielded a highly innovative 4-6-0 formation. It shaped up like this:


- 2 centre backs
- 2 athletic, attacking (by nature, although not in this game) full backs
- 1 centre back playing as a static defensive midfielder
- 1 mobile destroyer
- 2 technically competent "creative" centre midfielders
- 2 reasonably athletic, hard working wide players
- 0 strikers


Has anyone seen a team play with no strikers before? I remember Spalletti's Roma playing with Totti as a floating centre forward, but he usually occupied a centre back and there would be 2 or 3 players looking to run beyond him at all times. That's as close as I can come up with.

Anyone?

4-6-0 is coming a very popular dig at managers, specially for loosing games. I've seen that done to Carlo(that friendly against Chelsea was really bad though ... or was there 6-4-0?), Ferguson, Wenger, Benitez. Those are mostly been cases of injury woes and dropping the striker back. Don't think there have been a version of 4-6-0 like you describe it.

 

[GreatKalu]

Steven Fletcher doesn't play because he's our best striker. Kenny Miller, picked without fail for the last 10 years in spite of consistent mediocrity, didn't play because right now he's in the form of his life and averaging better than a goal per game.

Morrison plays because he's an English reject, which makes him exotic and, apparently, just plain better. Same goes for Jamie Mackie, who has apparently said that he's playing for Scotland because he feels that international football will look good on his CV.

Fuck international football. I think I'll be a Brazil fan. LOOOOOOOL at Shitaly!!!!!!

LMAO. Come on now Calum ... where's your patriotism?

Gotta be behind them at all times. Who knows ... they might nick a goal off a set piece (seems designed for that ) and I'd bet on them winning the game thereafter regardless of the opposition

4-6-0 is coming a very popular dig at managers, specially for loosing games. I've seen that done to Carlo(that friendly against Chelsea was really bad though ... or was there 6-4-0?), Ferguson, Wenger, Benitez. Those are mostly been cases of injury woes and dropping the striker back. Don't think there have been a version of 4-6-0 like you describe it.

Yep ... I'd agree with this. I remember a match in Carlo's last season, where Kaka' and Pato were both out with injuries. Dinho was also out (don't know if it was an actual injury or whether he was benched) and we started with Janku at LM, Clarence playing as a second striker, and Pippo up front. This was around the time when Werder knocked us out of the Europa League + we played at home against a mid-table side. Can't remember who though ...

We ended up winning with Pippo shoving a defender in the back before he back-passed it to his GK IIRC ... ball went loose, fell to Clarence, and he thumped it in the back of the net.

Thereafter, Pippo was subbed out for another midfielder, and we held on for the 1-0 victory. So yeah ... mostly due to injuries, and usually towards the end of the game. Heck, we even finished Bayern - Milan (0 - 2, '07) with no strikers since Pippo wasn't 100% fit to begin with, Gila was suspended, and it was a waste playing Oliviera as a CF.

So overall, Levein deserves credit for his revolutionary tactics.

 

[neutral]

So overall, Levein deserves credit for his revolutionary tactics.

Even though he lost?

 

[GreatKalu]

Even though he lost?

Yes. Results of course matter ... but while midgets that pass sideways till they cover each square inch of a pitch 156 times are praised for their football in defeat, thugs who fight like maniacs + give their heart's content are ridiculed as destroyers of the beautiful game even in victory ...

Point is, I think there are other agendas being filled by the media, as no where in the rules of football is it specifically written what formations, systems and even philosophies a team must adopt in order to play the game.

That said, I'm not saying that playing with no strikers is the way to go. The modern game is all about balance ... experienced players playing with younger, energetic, hungrier ones ... crisp touches, control and passing mixed with raw pace, strength and work rate ... neat, defense-dissecting through-balls mixed with long balls ... the list goes on.

Regarding the previous discussion concerning Milan prior to the recognition of Levein's innovation, I don't think we should get caught up much with regards to the attacking setup deployed. 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2, X-mass tree seems all too constrained for the talented + intelligent attackers we have. For more average, one-dimensional players, sure ... align them in specific positions. But our guys are simply too good in various positions to be restricted that way.

Picture a pre-match team talk, and we're in the dressing room due to play Milan in a bit. If Milan are setup in a 4-3-3 of Dinho - Ibra - Pato, be certain that the coach will be saying:

1) 1 CB should man-mark Ibra. Be close to him, don't let him go past ... don't give him any space. If he drops deep, the DM should continue man-marking him.

2) RB should stick by Dinho + always expect him to shift the ball to his right foot and cross diagonally Rarely, he will try to get past the RB further down the flank, going past on RB's right hand side. Don't worry, he doesn't have the legs ... the RC can catch up, and if he can't, the RCB should move in to cover. RB should always push forward when in possession in order to double up on Antonini.

3) LB has to be fully aware of where Pato is. Attention is vital as you never know which positions he'll take up. When Dinho is flicking the ball about, be extra-attentive of his runs towards the far post.

I believe this should be enough to keep us quiet in a fixed 4-3-3 with Dinho. Our only hope would be a bit of magic from Ibra, Pato OR a combination of the two of them - which we haven't seen YET.

Now, if you consider that Binho is a player who picks up different positions, making different types of runs, I believe he is the key to making Ibra and Pato link up better. True he doesn't have the vision and passing ability of Dinho, but he's not far off ... and his movement and work rate will mix in better with Ibra and Pato.

So, rather than follow these strict systems, I would like to see a more fluid attack. Interchanging positions and roles, working together as a unit with nice interplay ... just three in attack, I don't care how they lineup, just as long as they are mobile and dynamic. Of course, it will take time for such chemistry to develop ... we risk looking disorganized in the beginning phases of implementing such a system; but its our best shot as far as the current squad is concerned IMO.

The same applies for the central midfield. A lot will say 07 was all about Kaka' ... but without that CM, we wouldn't have won jack. Gatusso lined up at RCM, Ambro at LCM with Pirlo in the holding role ... Clarence tucked in on the left but we would see him in front and on the right as well. It was about creating a unit ... where they covered for one another, so in tune with each other n/fr. When one CM is out of position or was beaten, another CM would cover for him, creating a chain of CMs changing roles and positions to cover up the entire midfield. For example, when Ambro pushed forward, Pirlo would come left, Gattuso in the holding role, Clarence drift towards the right ...

This sort of chemistry and knowledge of each others game comes with time playing together. Its not secret to me that matches are won in the midfield. Of course, with Jose Special Ass now in the spotlight, you'd think counter-attacking is the future. But thats only suitable playing against a team that plays with the ball; when he played against a team that also played excellent counter-attacking football (Rafa) it kinda cancelled out.

A more definite way IMO is a more balanced approach. With more numbers in central midfield, you have more chances of having more possession, and usually will. Having CMs that are both very capable on the ball and without it (winning the ball) gives you possession as well as protection against counters from opposition. The more well oiled your unit of CMs are, the better the possession and protection.

 

[Calum1903]

4-6-0 is coming a very popular dig at managers, specially for loosing games. I've seen that done to Carlo(that friendly against Chelsea was really bad though ... or was there 6-4-0?), Ferguson, Wenger, Benitez. Those are mostly been cases of injury woes and dropping the striker back. Don't think there have been a version of 4-6-0 like you describe it.

Aye, I read/hear it quite frequently as a criticism levelled at coaches by people with agendas. It's never really true though. In this case, however, Levein stuck rigidly to his plan of ensuring that Scotland never had possession for long enough to force David Weir to push the defensive line up beyond the penalty box. Truly groundbreaking.

LMAO. Come on now Calum ... where's your patriotism?

Patriotism is a separate issue from support for an SFA select consisting of English rejects and half-interested traitors. That's off-topic here though.

So overall, Levein deserves credit for his revolutionary tactics.

I think it's fair to say that I'm one of the main defenders/advocates of defensive tactics on here, but 4-6-0 didn't even make sense from a defensive point of view. The value of defending in numbers is outweighed by the consequences of the instant tame surrender of possession upon clearing the ball. If you don't have either a target man or an Olic-style workhorse to run into channels and harass defenders, it becomes far too easy for the opposition to build wave after wave of attacks. Even Scotland might manage to score against a team that allow them to have 90% possession.

 

[neutral]

Spain Will Be Ready For Whatever Tactics Scotland Deploy - Coach Vicente Del Bosque

Spain coach Vicente del Bosque told a press conference this afternoon that his players remain as motivated as ever to achieve success with the national side.

The experienced tactician was fielding questions prior to tomorrow’s clash with Scotland at Hampden Park, and the question was raised as to whether the team still have the desire to keep winning after already achieving both European Championships and World Cup success.

Del Bosque responded: “A footballer's life is short, and there is no point dwelling on the past. There are new challenges, and the players know it. It is not difficult to motivate them.

“Their rivals clearly see added value in playing against the world champions, but we are used to it. There will be nothing unusual.

The former Real Madrid coach also offered his opinion on the likely tactics of Scotland, and the importance of leaving Glasgow with the points.

“Against Czech Republic they played very tight and only came forward when they conceded a goal," he said. "Tomorrow, playing at home, supported by this audience, they will try to score.

“If we were to jump onto nine points, we would leave the other teams behind, but the margin of error is minimal. I would not rule out any of the other three teams who are fighting for second place.”

Del Bosque continued, "We will be very much prepared for whatever tactics Scotland adopt tomorrow night. At club level, lots of our players come up against these types of tactics week after week.
"We will be looking at ways to combat it on counter-attacking and looking at ways to combat it from deadball situations. It's something all the players are used to and we will be making sure we are doubly prepared.

"Looking at it, we've got sufficient alternative ways of playing to be able to combat various defensive formations.

"We've got players of different characteristics and styles who can find a way around that."

Finally, he commented on David Villa’s attempts to surpass Raul’s all-time goalscoring record for the national team, adding: “He is a special player, he is anxious to become top scorer. However he is working more or less the same as he did at the World Cup.”

 

[neutral]

Yes. Results of course matter ... but while midgets that pass sideways till they cover each square inch of a pitch 156 times are praised for their football in defeat, thugs who fight like maniacs + give their heart's content are ridiculed as destroyers of the beautiful game even in victory

Yes but atleast with the midgets tactics they are always trying to win the game not draw like the Scottish.

 

[Kalac#16]

I think Levein is aware of Maguire's ability to score from the halfway line, and so he's practicing the tactic of never having to leave his own half for when Maguire gets a full call up.

 

[GreatKalu]

Patriotism is a separate issue from support for an SFA select consisting of English rejects and half-interested traitors. That's off-topic here though.

Just when I thought this thread was turning interesting ...

I think it's fair to say that I'm one of the main defenders/advocates of defensive tactics on here, but 4-6-0 didn't even make sense from a defensive point of view. The value of defending in numbers is outweighed by the consequences of the instant tame surrender of possession upon clearing the ball. If you don't have either a target man or an Olic-style workhorse to run into channels and harass defenders, it becomes far too easy for the opposition to build wave after wave of attacks. Even Scotland might manage to score against a team that allow them to have 90% possession.

That bad ... huh? How much possession did you have? Should I dare to ask whether there were shots on goal?

I'll make it a point to watch as much of the evolution of the game as I can tonight.

Yes but atleast with the midgets tactics they are always trying to win the game not draw like the Scottish.

The Scots were honest about their defending. Midgets defend by not letting you have the ball. Lets not forget they play with 2 holding midfielders as well. I find the Scots' sincerity regarding their intentions honorable.

 

[manutd fan]

Rangers played 5-5-0 against United at OT this season.

 

[Calum1903]

Rangers played 5-5-0 against United at OT this season.

5-4-1. Kenny Miller played up front, although I'm sure he tracked back a bit.

 

[manutd fan]

5-4-1. Kenny Miller played up front, although I'm sure he tracked back a bit.

He barely played upfront. He was usually on the half way line. He did run his socks off though.

 

[Calum1903]

He barely played upfront. He was usually on the half way line. He did run his socks off though.

That makes all the difference though. 4-6-0 doesn't exactly put much pressure on the opposition back 4 when they have possession.

 

[KujaIX]

GreatKalu, was that match against Cagliari?

I remember Carlo starting Janku at LM that game and it was what we all wanted and it didn't really work. Seedorf scored somewhere around the 70/80th minute, it was a volley from the edge of the box, which is where my match differs from yours.

 

[manutd fan]

That makes all the difference though. 4-6-0 doesn't exactly put much pressure on the opposition back 4 when they have possession.

I think it can. He was the CM, while all the others were defensive mids, if that makes any sense at all?

The tactic worked for them anyway.

 

[GreatKalu]

GreatKalu, was that match against Cagliari?

I remember Carlo starting Janku at LM that game and it was what we all wanted and it didn't really work. Seedorf scored somewhere around the 70/80th minute, it was a volley from the edge of the box, which is where my match differs from yours.

Yes, it was the same game. I just remembered Pippo shoving a defender in the back in order to create a misunderstanding between the defender and keeper. Ball was lose, and Clarence pounced on it.

We lined up with Pippo up top, Clarence supporting, Janku - Pirlo - Flamini -Becks midfield, Zambro - Favalli - Paolo - Bonera back four, with Abs in goal.

 

[Kalac#16]

I think it can. He was the CM, while all the others were defensive mids, if that makes any sense at all?

The tactic worked for them anyway.

Almost all teams do that when they're under heavy pressure, drop the CF back to the halfway line to press the defenders who have now moved up to the halfway line, whilst the CM's play even deeper, pretty much shielding the defense.

 

[Sven]

I'm sure Carlos Alberto Parreira (Brazil coach in 94 and 2006, South Africa this WC) said in an interview some time ago that "in the future, football teams will have no attackers, just midfielders running forward".

At the time it was used by the media in Brazil (angry post-2006) as an evidence of his madness.

 

[Sven]

The most defensive tatic I can remember is a 3-6-1 with four DM's ("volantes" as we call in Brazil). I'm sure it was Celso Roth (Internacional manager now), but I can't remember the year. It was:

3 CB's (no sweeper, just a line with 3 CB's)

2 offensive fullbacks ("alas" as we call in Brazil) forming a 5 man's line in the defense but with permission to attack by the flanks .

3 DM's with 0 creativity

1 DM who could go forward with the ball.

1 powerfull striker to receive long balls and crosses

 

[samir10]

Rangers played 5-5-0 against United at OT this season.

pretty much same for milan when playing vs minnows on san siro.

 

[Fiero]

I mentioned in Real Madrid's game thread at half-time that we were very unlucky, and I'll explain why.

Any sane person with minor football knowledge would easily understand that Real Madrid have the better individuals, and thus had a better chance of victory especially playing at home. We went into this game as underdogs, and a draw would have been nice.

I don't think Allegri should be blamed AT ALL. His game plan was trying not to concede, and as Real would get frustrated and push up, we try and hit them on the counter. Of course, after being 2-0 down in 16 mins, this was no longer possible and the game was already lost.

The two goals we conceded were ludicrous beyond belief. The first goal was an unnecessary foul from the inexperienced Pato, with shit wall by Ibra and Seedorf. In less than a minute, Ronaldo had cut through Gattuso and Zambrotta (expected, he is the best player in the world) and passed to Özil who had a shot deflected by Bonera. I think most of the blame in this goal should go to Pirlo, who didn't press Özil at all. Pirlo knew of his defensive deficiencies so didn't even bother. There was no time for Nesta to do it this time as he was watching Ronaldo, Bonera was late and thus the ball deflected him. Both mentally and tactically it was game over.

But this is football. I think so far almost all of our goals came from counter attacks. Milan's game is basically a possession game, but we score only from individual brilliance or counter attacks. Our midfield's advanced age forces us to stand off our opponents until they push very high up and then we counter. Milan doesn't press much, and therefore we don't normally win the ball at advanced positions. Even small teams enjoy good possession ratio against us. This is not a bad thing, just how we play.

Most of my blame on Real's game (as pointed out to brilliantly by Senatore) goes to Pato and Ibra. They had an absolute shocker, they were even worse than Seedorf and Bonera who got most of the blame. Pato and Ibra need to do more defensive work, their role yesterday was non-existent. Allegri wanted them to play a little bit wider to pin Real's fullbacks to defense, but they didn't press at all, which made our defensive job even more difficult.

Ronaldo was Gattuso's and Zambrotta's job, and even being double marked he'll get past them many times anyway. Di Maria was for Antonini, and Pirlo took care of Özil (hence my blame on him for the goal), Nesta and Bonera had to shield whoever gets through his men (mostly Ronaldo, sometimes Di Maria) and kept Higuain silent. If we hadn't conceded the two goals from individual mistakes, I am pretty sure we would have been able to keep them from scoring. The thing is, as I mentioned, our only hope of scoring was counter attack. So we needed for them to push up so that we could exploit them.

They scored two early goals and thus ended the game. But they've always had their fullbacks playing comfortably due to lack of pressure from our strikers. There was nothing Ronaldinho could do as he had Alonso and Khedira near him all the time. The thing is, Mourinho's teams are solid as fuck defensively, and so we struggled a lot because they maintained their discipline after two early goals.

 

[Charbel]

Someone didn't see Pato track back and defend against C.R. When R-80 + the Midfield were busy walking around.

 

[Fiero]

Someone didn't see Pato track back and defend against C.R. When R-80 + the Midfield were busy walking around.

Yeah he tracked back once, committed a silly foul that cost us the first goal. Did nothing else the rest of the game. Wohooooo!

 

[Sonny.Bill.Williams]

Where do you draw the line between bad defending and great attacking when it comes to goals ....i mean are la ligas defenses bad or are their attackers exceptional and vice versa for italy ?

 

[Senatore_M84]

Italian teams are way more organized/better on cutting down space. Smaller teams make littler effort to come out and play. They'll sit 7 to 8 behind ball at all times. It's a large reason I believe pure wingers are irrelevant in italy.

When a team is sitting with a deep 3 man infront of a flat 4 it's very hard for a winger to find space. There is a trade off between the side CM and FB and they should close space well. Think about it, the winger is on right side, trying to cut in, but he has a LCM and a LB there. Then the deep DCM in center infront of 2 CBs all 3 closing any cross he could possibly get off.

Finally in general, Italian teams will foul you before they give you a clear run on goal. It's why I think a player like Messi or Cristiano from a wide position in a 4-3-3 wouldn't score as many goals, but they would earn a million fouls and pk's.

I'm not sure the quality of individual defending is MUCH different across leagues but the quality of team defending and tactics is.

 

[hdcantona]

I think the main thing in spain is all the teams will go and have a shot at the big teams, they'll try and play football and will attack, they tend to settle for a draw before the game begins much less often than in italy.

I think Italian teams' defences are better organised, but the whole la liga = shit defences thing is becoming a bit of a cliché nowadays, it's more a case of style rather than capability imo.

 

[manutd fan]

Italian teams are way more organized/better on cutting down space. Smaller teams make littler effort to come out and play. They'll sit 7 to 8 behind ball at all times. It's a large reason I believe pure wingers are irrelevant in italy.

When a team is sitting with a deep 3 man infront of a flat 4 it's very hard for a winger to find space. There is a trade off between the side CM and FB and they should close space well. Think about it, the winger is on right side, trying to cut in, but he has a LCM and a LB there. Then the deep DCM in center infront of 2 CBs all 3 closing any cross he could possibly get off.

Finally in general, Italian teams will foul you before they give you a clear run on goal. It's why I think a player like Messi or Cristiano from a wide position in a 4-3-3 wouldn't score as many goals, but they would earn a million fouls and pk's.

I'm not sure the quality of individual defending is MUCH different across leagues but the quality of team defending and tactics is.

To be fair Ronaldo played on the wing in the Premiership, where they're more likely to foul you, whether it be a body check, clip in the legs, or a cruncher from behind. Mainly because the game is so quick and you get away with more. Ronaldo's a freak. He's so complete that he would excell in any league.


(pleasant viewing for those who hate him)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxG6OaQUCgI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vFdjJdXqOo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWnc9NK75gY&feature=related
(this one still fucks me off ^)

All that took me about 3 minutes. There's plenty more.

I agree with Messi though. He needs more space to play his game than Ronaldo, who can hurt you in every way possible.